The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Lasciel's lies and the complicated truth
KurtinStGeorge:
One minor; very minor, disappointment in Skin Game was that Harry didn't get very much conversation time with Lasciel. Harry's conversations with Nicodemus are usually fun; if creepy, and I expect nothing less from a full discussion between Harry and Lasciel, but that didn't happen in this case.
Granted, Harry was under the gun, what with Nicodemus revealing that the Genoskwa had taken up Ursiel's coin and Hannah Ascher was carrying Lasciel's, this meant Harry didn't have time to call Lasciel out on her BS, because almost everything she said to Harry were lies.
I'm going to point out the obvious lies and speculate on the biggest lie of them all. I suspect, the next time Lasciel makes an appearance that allows for Harry to give the fallen angel some backtalk, he will do exactly that and get under her skin in the process.
Remember these lines? (Edited)
Harry: "Lasciel!"
Lashiel: "Hello lover."
Michael: "Lover?"
Harry: "It's complicated."
Michael: "Oh Dear."
Yes it's funny, but that obscures the fact that Lasciel's first statement to Harry was an outright lie. Harry and Lash developed a love for one another, not Harry and Lasciel. Yes, originally Lash was just a copy of Lasciel but in the end she became her own being, with a will to decide for herself.
The same applies to the statement Lasciel made about Bonea.
Lashiel: “Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child. She’s far too valuable a resource to be allowed to die with you.”
Harry: "You know about that."
Michael: "Child?"
Harry: "Complicated."
Another lie, Bonea wasn't Lasciel's child, Bonea is Lash's child. Lasciel might want to claim that a distinction between herself and her former shadow self didn't exist. When Harry first picked up the coin that was a reasonably true statement. In time that was no longer true. Lash had become an individual with her own will and conscience. When Lash said, "She... doesn't deserve you." it showed us that an unbridgeable gap had opened between Lash and Lashiel. Lash was now a distinct individual.
That gets me to Lasciel's biggest lie. I'll warn you I'm going into WAG territory here and I need to give some exposition first to help explain how I reached this conclusion.
There have been a number of different versions of the story of Dr. Faustus going back over four hundred years. If you are unfamiliar with this story, Dr. Faustus calls up one of Satan's minions; Mephistopheles, in order to offer his soul to Satan in exchange for the usual; power, wealth, extended life and so on; and of course, later deeply regrets his decision. In some of the later versions of this story Mephistopheles is Satan. Mephistopheles is just one of Satan's many names. However, in the earliest versions of this story Mephistopheles is one of those beings who fell with Satan. This is important, because I believe Mephistopheles point of view about hell is identical to that of the Fallen in the Dresden Files. Jim Butcher has a degree in English Literature, so he probably knows Christopher Marlowe's late 16th century version of the story, "The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus." Here is the relevant passage:
FAUSTUS. And what are you that live with Lucifer?
MEPHIST. Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer,
Conspir’d against our God with Lucifer,
And are for ever damn’d with Lucifer.
FAUSTUS. Where are you damn’d?
MEPHIST. In hell.
FAUSTUS. How comes it, then, that thou art out of hell?
MEPHIST. Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it:
Think’st thou that I, who saw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells,
In being depriv’d of everlasting bliss?
It seems very likely to me that Fallen in the Dresden Files; whether they are stuck in one of the coins or if they have joined with someone who has taken up one of the Blackened Denarius, are every bit as much in hell as Mephistopheles described in Christopher Marlowe's version of Dr. Faustus. This leads me to what I believe is the real reason Lasciel was so P.O.'d at Harry.
It wasn't because she was women scorned. Think about it, Lasciel has been around since near the dawn of creation. She was; according to Lash, created for a purpose too complex for mere mortals like Harry to comprehend. Yet we are to believe that Lasciel's ego is so fragile that one mortal who refused to fully take up her coin pushes her over the edge into insane, murderous, scorned girlfriend mode. I don't think so. If I'm right, what was the real reason why Lasciel was furious with Harry? As Harry would say, "It's complicated," but easy to understand.
It starts in understanding how Lasciel; really how all of the Fallen in the coins, create their shadow selves. To make a copy of her memory and personality, Lasciel must have used a tiny portion of herself. According to Bob, angels are soul and nothing but their soul. The Fallen must tolerate losing a small part of themselves until the mortal who touched the coin they reside in, accepts the offer of power from their shadow self. When the mortal accepts the offer the true Fallen enters and reacquires that part of their soul.
This can't happen because Lash decided to side with Harry and then sacrificed herself to save him. Maybe it's possible for an angel to regrow their soul, but I imagine it would be tougher for a fallen angel to do the kind of things that make that possible. Perhaps with a new host, Lasciel can go out on Halloween night and steal part of the soul of another angel, but this idea seems highly speculative.
Whatever the case may be, Lasciel can't have been happy even if she only lost one hundredth of one percent of her soul. That a mortal could have taken it away from her would probably make one of the Fallen especially upset. However, I think there is something else, something special that pushes Lasciel over the edge into volcanic, murderous, ex-girlfriend mode. It has to do with what Lash became when she turned her back on Lasciel.
Remember when Harry said this to Lash?
"I don't think you're the only one doing any influencing here. I don't think you're the same creature now that you were when you came."
And later added this?
"What if you don't have to be Lasciel? Think about it. What if you do have a choice? A life of your own to lead? What if, huh? And you don't even try to choose?"
I doubt Harry understood the full implications of what he told Lash. Initially, it reads as Harry telling Lash that he changed her as much as she changed him. That Lash could be more than just Lasciel's shadow and become her own person; make that her own being. I don't think Harry realized that for Lash to make that choice, it would mean not only that Lash would have her own life, it would be a mortal life. Lash could only live as long as Harry was alive. No more going back to the immortal fallen angel.
Even though Lash didn't have her own physical body, she was imprinted in Harry's mind, in his brain. Over time that tiny bit that had once been a part of Lasciel's soul had changed. When Lash finally said, "She doesn't deserve you" we can confidently say that Lash's soul had grown; and it was her soul now. She had a become a new independent being. Then Lash made the decision to sacrifice herself for Harry. "No greater love" and so forth.
Now we get back to the importance of the story of Dr. Faustus and what Mephistopheles said about hell. Lasciel is in hell, wherever she or her coin or her human host may be. Lasciel is locked out of the "eternal joys" and "eternal bliss" forever. Lash isn't. Harry not only kept that little bit of Lasciel's soul from coming back to her, he helped it grow, helped it become an independent being and Harry helped Lash to find the will to redeem herself. Lash now has what Lasciel can never have again. That is the real source of Lasciel's anger.
Tinfoil hat:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 24, 2025, 09:45:32 AM ---One minor; very minor, disappointment in Skin Game was that Harry didn't get very much conversation time with Lasciel. Harry's conversations with Nicodemus are usually fun; if creepy, and I expect nothing less from a full discussion between Harry and Lasciel, but that didn't happen in this case.
Granted, Harry was under the gun, what with Nicodemus revealing that the Genoskwa had taken up Ursiel's coin and Hannah Ascher was carrying Lasciel's, this meant Harry didn't have time to call Lasciel out on her BS, because almost everything she said to Harry were lies.
I'm going to point out the obvious lies and speculate on the biggest lie of them all. I suspect, the next time Lasciel makes an appearance that allows for Harry to give the fallen angel some backtalk, he will do exactly that and get under her skin in the process.
Remember these lines? (Edited)
Harry: "Lasciel!"
Lashiel: "Hello lover."
Michael: "Lover?"
Harry: "It's complicated."
Michael: "Oh Dear."
Yes it's funny, but that obscures the fact that Lasciel's first statement to Harry was an outright lie. Harry and Lash developed a love for one another, not Harry and Lasciel. Yes, originally Lash was just a copy of Lasciel but in the end she became her own being, with a will to decide for herself.
The same applies to the statement Lasciel made about Bonea.
Lashiel: “Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child. She’s far too valuable a resource to be allowed to die with you.”
Harry: "You know about that."
Michael: "Child?"
Harry: "Complicated."
Another lie, Bonea wasn't Lasciel's child, Bonea is Lash's child. Lasciel might want to claim that a distinction between herself and her former shadow self didn't exist. When Harry first picked up the coin that was a reasonably true statement. In time that was no longer true. Lash had become an individual with her own will and conscience. When Lash said, "She... doesn't deserve you." it showed us that an unbridgeable gap had opened between Lash and Lashiel. Lash was now a distinct individual.
That gets me to Lasciel's biggest lie. I'll warn you I'm going into WAG territory here and I need to give some exposition first to help explain how I reached this conclusion.
There have been a number of different versions of the story of Dr. Faustus going back over four hundred years. If you are unfamiliar with this story, Dr. Faustus calls up one of Satan's minions; Mephistopheles, in order to offer his soul to Satan in exchange for the usual; power, wealth, extended life and so on; and of course, later deeply regrets his decision. In some of the later versions of this story Mephistopheles is Satan. Mephistopheles is just one of Satan's many names. However, in the earliest versions of this story Mephistopheles is one of those beings who fell with Satan. This is important, because I believe Mephistopheles point of view about hell is identical to that of the Fallen in the Dresden Files. Jim Butcher has a degree in English Literature, so he probably knows Christopher Marlowe's late 16th century version of the story, "The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus." Here is the relevant passage:
FAUSTUS. And what are you that live with Lucifer?
MEPHIST. Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer,
Conspir’d against our God with Lucifer,
And are for ever damn’d with Lucifer.
FAUSTUS. Where are you damn’d?
MEPHIST. In hell.
FAUSTUS. How comes it, then, that thou art out of hell?
MEPHIST. Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it:
Think’st thou that I, who saw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells,
In being depriv’d of everlasting bliss?
It seems very likely to me that Fallen in the Dresden Files; whether they are stuck in one of the coins or if they have joined with someone who has taken up one of the Blackened Denarius, are every bit as much in hell as Mephistopheles described in Christopher Marlowe's version of Dr. Faustus. This leads me to what I believe is the real reason Lasciel was so P.O.'d at Harry.
It wasn't because she was women scorned. Think about it, Lasciel has been around since near the dawn of creation. She was; according to Lash, created for a purpose too complex for mere mortals like Harry to comprehend. Yet we are to believe that Lasciel's ego is so fragile that one mortal who refused to fully take up her coin pushes her over the edge into insane, murderous, scorned girlfriend mode. I don't think so. If I'm right, what was the real reason why Lasciel was furious with Harry? As Harry would say, "It's complicated," but easy to understand.
It starts in understanding how Lasciel; really how all of the Fallen in the coins, create their shadow selves. To make a copy of her memory and personality, Lasciel must have used a tiny portion of herself. According to Bob, angels are soul and nothing but their soul. The Fallen must tolerate losing a small part of themselves until the mortal who touched the coin they reside in, accepts the offer of power from their shadow self. When the mortal accepts the offer the true Fallen enters and reacquires that part of their soul.
This can't happen because Lash decided to side with Harry and then sacrificed herself to save him. Maybe it's possible for an angel to regrow their soul, but I imagine it would be tougher for a fallen angel to do the kind of things that make that possible. Perhaps with a new host, Lasciel can go out on Halloween night and steal part of the soul of another angel, but this idea seems highly speculative.
Whatever the case may be, Lasciel can't have been happy even if she only lost one hundredth of one percent of her soul. That a mortal could have taken it away from her would probably make one of the Fallen especially upset. However, I think there is something else, something special that pushes Lasciel over the edge into volcanic, murderous, ex-girlfriend mode. It has to do with what Lash became when she turned her back on Lasciel.
Remember when Harry said this to Lash?
"I don't think you're the only one doing any influencing here. I don't think you're the same creature now that you were when you came."
And later added this?
"What if you don't have to be Lasciel? Think about it. What if you do have a choice? A life of your own to lead? What if, huh? And you don't even try to choose?"
I doubt Harry understood the full implications of what he told Lash. Initially, it reads as Harry telling Lash that he changed her as much as she changed him. That Lash could be more than just Lasciel's shadow and become her own person; make that her own being. I don't think Harry realized that for Lash to make that choice, it would mean not only that Lash would have her own life, it would be a mortal life. Lash could only live as long as Harry was alive. No more going back to the immortal fallen angel.
Even though Lash didn't have her own physical body, she was imprinted in Harry's mind, in his brain. Over time that tiny bit that had once been a part of Lasciel's soul had changed. When Lash finally said, "She doesn't deserve you" we can confidently say that Lash's soul had grown; and it was her soul now. She had a become a new independent being. Then Lash made the decision to sacrifice herself for Harry. "No greater love" and so forth.
Now we get back to the importance of the story of Dr. Faustus and what Mephistopheles said about hell. Lasciel is in hell, wherever she or her coin or her human host may be. Lasciel is locked out of the "eternal joys" and "eternal bliss" forever. Lash isn't. Harry not only kept that little bit of Lasciel's soul from coming back to her, he helped it grow, helped it become an independent being and Harry helped Lash to find the will to redeem herself. Lash now has what Lasciel can never have again. That is the real source of Lasciel's anger.
--- End quote ---
This is beautifully written. I have a few uhm reservations about the statements and conclusions but just plain beatiful.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Remember when Harry said this to Lash?
"I don't think you're the only one doing any influencing here. I don't think you're the same creature now that you were when you came."
And later added this?
"What if you don't have to be Lasciel? Think about it. What if you do have a choice? A life of your own to lead? What if, huh? And you don't even try to choose?"
--- End quote ---
Taking a stab at this, based on one of the main themes of The Dresden Files, I think it comes down to free will. Lucifer originally rebelled and was kicked out of Heaven over free will. While Lucifer may have free will now in Hell, how much does his followers really have? What Harry was asking of Lash was for her to realize that what she has, and to exercise her free will. When she does realize it and chooses to sacrifice herself for Harry, that is what pisses Lasciel off. Because she really isn't given any choice at all.
Tinfoil hat:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 24, 2025, 01:11:01 PM ---Taking a stab at this, based on one of the main themes of The Dresden Files, I think it comes down to free will. Lucifer originally rebelled and was kicked out of Heaven over free will. While Lucifer may have free will now in Hell, how much does his followers really have? What Harry was asking of Lash was for her to realize that what she has, and to exercise her free will. When she does realize it and chooses to sacrifice herself for Harry, that is what pisses Lasciel off. Because she really isn't given any choice at all.
--- End quote ---
Traditionally in Christianity Angels were given a chose during the rebellion. At thats it they cant repeat. It was a one and done. Cause unlike us they saw the BIG GUY in his beauty. And they chose to rebel. Humanity was deceived into rebelling. In Paradise Lost: one of the things pple miss is that the Satan and the fallen regret their decision and the whole better to rule in hell that Paradise speech is meant to be read by the reader as Luci trying to make the poet and /or himself believe that he made the right choice.
In the Dresden Files the lore seems to be based on this or a similar interpretation.
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 24, 2025, 09:45:32 AM ---Remember these lines? (Edited)
Harry: "Lasciel!"
Lashiel: "Hello lover."
Michael: "Lover?"
Harry: "It's complicated."
Michael: "Oh Dear."
Yes it's funny, but that obscures the fact that Lasciel's first statement to Harry was an outright lie. Harry and Lash developed a love for one another, not Harry and Lasciel. Yes, originally Lash was just a copy of Lasciel but in the end she became her own being, with a will to decide for herself.
passage:
It wasn't because she was women scorned. Think about it, Lasciel has been around since near the dawn of creation. She was; according to Lash, created for a purpose too complex for mere mortals like Harry to comprehend. Yet we are to believe that Lasciel's ego is so fragile that one mortal who refused to fully take up her coin pushes her over the edge into insane, murderous, scorned girlfriend mode. I don't think so. If I'm right, what was the real reason why Lasciel was furious with Harry? As Harry would say, "It's complicated," but easy to understand.
It starts in understanding how Lasciel; really how all of the Fallen in the coins, create their shadow selves. To make a copy of her memory and personality, Lasciel must have used a tiny portion of herself. According to Bob, angels are soul and nothing but their soul. The Fallen must tolerate losing a small part of themselves until the mortal who touched the coin they reside in, accepts the offer of power from their shadow self. When the mortal accepts the offer the true Fallen enters and reacquires that part of their soul.
This can't happen because Lash decided to side with Harry and then sacrificed herself to save him. Maybe it's possible for an angel to regrow their soul, but I imagine it would be tougher for a fallen angel to do the kind of things that make that possible. Perhaps with a new host, Lasciel can go out on Halloween night and steal part of the soul of another angel, but this idea seems highly speculative.
Whatever the case may be, Lasciel can't have been happy even if she only lost one hundredth of one percent of her soul. That a mortal could have taken it away from her would probably make one of the Fallen especially upset. However, I think there is something else, something special that pushes Lasciel over the edge into volcanic, murderous, ex-girlfriend mode. It has to do with what Lash became when she turned her back on Lasciel.
Remember when Harry said this to Lash?
"I don't think you're the only one doing any influencing here. I don't think you're the same creature now that you were when you came."
And later added this?
"What if you don't have to be Lasciel? Think about it. What if you do have a choice? A life of your own to lead? What if, huh? And you don't even try to choose?"
I doubt Harry understood the full implications of what he told Lash. Initially, it reads as Harry telling Lash that he changed her as much as she changed him. That Lash could be more than just Lasciel's shadow and become her own person; make that her own being. I don't think Harry realized that for Lash to make that choice, it would mean not only that Lash would have her own life, it would be a mortal life. Lash could only live as long as Harry was alive. No more going back to the immortal fallen angel
Now we get back to the importance of the story of Dr. Faustus and what Mephistopheles said about hell. Lasciel is in hell, wherever she or her coin or her human host may be. Lasciel is locked out of the "eternal joys" and "eternal bliss" forever. Lash isn't. Harry not only kept that little bit of Lasciel's soul from coming back to her, he helped it grow, helped it become an independent being and Harry helped Lash to find the will to redeem herself. Lash now has what Lasciel can never have again. That is the real source.
For me Lash is Lasciel. At first at least. When Lasciel copies herself to make a shadow. Its imparted with part of her power. The more human uses the coin the more corrupted he/she gets. But harry lasted far to long and lash started using Harry as a source of energy. Giving her free will or the seed for free will.
Harry says to Michael that the fallen dont like churches because they have regrets and known what they lost and can never get back.
Except now Lasciel has seen part of herself get the redemption denied to her and shes furious.
In theology, the question of can the fallen angels be redeemed is asked a lot and the answer is no they cant course their nature doesn’t allow them to see what was wrong about their actions during and after the rebellion.
There is a low budget movie that I forget its name. But some of its themes remind me of the Dresden Files. There a redeemer is sent for the fallen only for them to pretend to repeat so the can kick start another rebellion.
--- End quote ---
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 24, 2025, 01:11:01 PM ---Taking a stab at this, based on one of the main themes of The Dresden Files, I think it comes down to free will. Lucifer originally rebelled and was kicked out of Heaven over free will. While Lucifer may have free will now in Hell, how much does his followers really have? What Harry was asking of Lash was for her to realize that what she has, and to exercise her free will. When she does realize it and chooses to sacrifice herself for Harry, that is what pisses Lasciel off. Because she really isn't given any choice at all.
--- End quote ---
To Mira and Tinfoil hat, thankyou for your replies. I've always been somewhat confused about this issue. Lasciel is angry that she lacks free will. But didn't those who fell with Satan make the choice to; as Mephistopheles put it, " Conspire against our God with Lucifer"? That would appear to be a choice, an exercise of free will.
This raises another question. If those who fell with Lucifer made the choice to follow him and were punished for doing so, why can't they make another choice to repent? Personally, I think they they have blinded themselves from the possibility of doing so. This fits in with Lucifer trying to justify his rebellion in Paradise Lost.
(I wanted to see what some serious theologian like Augustin or Thomas Aquinus might have said about this or if a classic piece of literature like Dante's Inferno took on this question. Though I forgot about Paradise Lost when I did this search. So I did a quick search and of course the first answer I got was from Google A.I.. You never know with any A.I. whether you are getting an answer that is backed up with evidence; actual evidence, or is just A.I. slop with made up evidence.
The A.I. answer is the fallen angels did exercise free will when they rebelled with Lucifer but they lack the capacity to repent. Therefore, their decision to rebel was irrevocable. There is no annotation of the source for this answer. I have to say, this feels like A.I. slop without an attempt being made to justify it.
There are real people who have tried to answer this question. The best ones (IMO) I found say the Fallen were further corrupted when they were cast out of heaven. They no longer have god's grace and therefore no longer have direction or impulse to do moral good. Plus, they know they are doomed which makes them even angrier and further corrupts them. This downward cycle also makes these fallen angels more destructive.
In these human attempts to answer this question there are some which use biblical references, but at least one said the answer isn't explicitly laid out in the bible. There are bible passages that are quoted but you have to read between the lines to put it all together. I don't know if this person or the others explanations are fully satisfying, but at least they felt like actual thought and effort were put into those answers, not just a pastiche of answers that were smeared together to give the impression of real thought.
OK, this has been a bit of a rant, but sometimes A.I. feels like such a scam and yet I keep hearing from supposedly highly intelligent people that A.I. is going to be the best thing since sliced bread.)
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