Author Topic: Ghost Story--two things  (Read 37693 times)

Offline Dina

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2025, 11:01:05 AM »
But I thought she met Malcolm before leaving Raith.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline g33k

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2025, 12:21:29 AM »
But I thought she met Malcolm before leaving Raith.

I don't think so.

The "official" timeline (crowdsourced as a fanwork largely here on the Paranet, but embraced by Jim & blessed as official on his site) lists them close together, but with her escaping Raith coming separately, and prior to, her meeting Malcolm Dresden.  For reference, her giving Thomas his copy of the pentacle amulet happened before she left, but not as a separate entry.

I'm also almost certain I recall a WoJ clarifying that yes, she had already left Raith when she met Dresden, tho I cannot search for it now.
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2025, 02:40:56 PM »
I don't think so.

The "official" timeline (crowdsourced as a fanwork largely here on the Paranet, but embraced by Jim & blessed as official on his site) lists them close together, but with her escaping Raith coming separately, and prior to, her meeting Malcolm Dresden.  For reference, her giving Thomas his copy of the pentacle amulet happened before she left, but not as a separate entry.

I'm also almost certain I recall a WoJ clarifying that yes, she had already left Raith when she met Dresden, tho I cannot search for it now.

Except that doesn't make sense.  Yes, Margaret did give Thomas a copy of her amulet.. But to what end? As simply a remembrance of her?  Or so he could recognize his brother or his brother could recognize him?  She also implanted a message for Harry in Thomas's mind so when they did meet, they could eventually soul gaze. Thomas also knew from the beginning that Harry was his brother.. Now Lara could have told him that, granted, but... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.."  No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith.  Also she was already pregnant, or had planned to be, because she met Malcolm, then planned to get pregnant by him with a star child.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2025, 12:12:17 PM by Mira »

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2025, 04:54:06 PM »
Except that doesn't make sense.  Yes, Margaret did give Thomas a copy of her amulet.. But to what end? As simply a remembrance of her?  Or so he could recognize his brother or his brother could recognize him?  She also implanted a message for Harry in Thomas's mind so when they did meet, they could eventually soul gaze. Thomas also knew from the beginning that Harry was his brother.. Now Lara could have told him that, granted, but... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.."  No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith.  Also she was already pregnant, or had planned to be, because she met Malcolm, then planned to get pregnant by him with a star child.

Mira, this isn't a bad argument.  You could be correct.  However, I think there is another possibility to consider.  Something happened that allowed for Margaret to have an epiphany or see the light, whatever metaphorical expression you wish to choose.  Could Uriel have been involved?  It's possible and even makes sense, but let me get back to the main story.  Margaret finally sees through to the end game of the scheme she was working on with Lord Raith and Duchess Ariana.  We could say Margarite finally sees Raith for what he really is or discovers his connection to the Outsiders and perceives their plan.  Either explanation works, but the scales fall from Margarete's eyes and she understands that first she must get away.  She can't think through a plan to counter what she set in motion until she escapes.

However, if the plan was to conceive a starborn child with Lord Raith or a mortal and then allow that child to be used for the benefit of two of the vampire courts, simply escaping the Raiths put a stop to that plan.  (I'm not saying that was the plan, but it's a possibility.) 

This makes me think about Papa Raith's reaction to Margarite's vanishing act.  I doubt he decided to kill her right away.  Raith could have performed an entropy curse within a day or a few days of  Margarite leaving him.  I forget what was said in Blood Rites about the entropy curse, but I do remember it could only be performed at specific times of the day.  I think it is much more likely that Raith wanted to get Margarite back and put her under his complete control.  Plus, with his ego, he would have wanted to personally punish her for defying him.  Think of the scene with Raith and Murphy in Blood Rites as an indication of how he would have reacted.  Only after realizing that catching Margarite LeFay was virtually impossible did Lord Raith decide to kill Margarite.  Another explanation is Lord Raith found out Margarite had married a mortal.  If they were in love with one another Lord Raith knew Margarite was protected from his further manipulation and control.  Perhaps that realization made Lord Raith act decisively.

Margarite probably guessed that she had some time before Lord Raith would become murderous.  She also had other former allies plus the White Council to worry about.  She meets Malcolm Dresden. Is Uriel involved in that happening?  Maybe, it seems plausible.  In any case, only after falling in love with Malcolm does she put together her plan to have a starborn child to counter the vampires and, or Outsiders. 

Something happens that tips off Margarite that her time is growing short.  She knows the Fae and specifically she knows Lea.  That is when she calls upon Lea and makes the deal that will protect her unborn child from just about everyone except Lea.  Margarite is in a hurry and doesn't make the best deal she might have made.  She doesn't get protection for Malcolm.  She makes the false assumption that Malcolm Dresden; being a vanilla mortal, won't be of any interest to the supernatural community.  She wasn't thinking clearly.

Lord Raith gets hit with Margarite death curse and realizes she did it, but doesn't initially understand what is fueling the death curse.  He didn't realize that the Margarite's child might be an anchor for her death curse until the child had already disappeared, probably after Malcolm Dresden's death.

There is my scenario.  It's not perfect, but I think it works.   

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Offline Dina

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2025, 05:18:05 PM »
I am sorry but I have to say this.  Her name is Margaret.
(Side note: she is Margaret Gwendolyn and the female main character in The Aeronaut Windlass is called Gwendolyn Margaret Elizabeth Lancaster)

Definitely many options here, I hope we have some answers soon.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline g33k

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2025, 01:12:30 AM »
... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.."  No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith ...

I really don't think so:  bluntly, this is nowhere supported in the text; it appears that you want Margaret's love for Malcolm to have been the critical element for her to leave Raith, but that's you reading-in something that isn't there, adding 2+2 to get 5, via your own +1.

The best info I can find is from the "official timeline":
Quote
~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.
26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.
-- https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
Which, while close-set in terms of timing, clearly places "... escapes Lord Raith" as a separate event occurring prior to "Maggie meets Malcolm."

There is a separate, unofficial fan timeline here:
   https://websiteofahistoricalpolymath.wordpress.com/timelines/time-line-of-the-harry-dresden-universe/
which specifically cites "Blood Rites" as the source, and (tentatively) places 1968 as the year Margaret left Raith, and 1969 as the year she met Malcolm.

I am almost certain I've read somewhere in WoJ's (or seen in AMA event video) that Jim has explicitly stated this; but I cannot find it at the moment.

Lash -- as "Lasciel's Shadow" -- was created with access to a tremendous number of secrets and hidden/occult information, things that "mere mortals" might rarely or never discover... things like "Fate" and "Destiny."  There may very well have been "portents" and "omens" and such-like, well-known to the Fallen, about Margaret LeFay giving birth to a Starborn.

Lasciel is rather less cognizant of things like genuine love, genuinely good people. Genuine love & goodness -- as the Shadow was formulated, the info it/she was created with -- would have been baffling, irrelevant.
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2025, 08:03:39 PM »
Quote
-- https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
Which, while close-set in terms of timing, clearly places "... escapes Lord Raith" as a separate event occurring prior to "Maggie meets Malcolm."

There is a separate, unofficial fan timeline here:
   https://websiteofahistoricalpolymath.wordpress.com/timelines/time-line-of-the-harry-dresden-universe/
which specifically cites "Blood Rites" as the source, and (tentatively) places 1968 as the year Margaret left Raith, and 1969 as the year she met Malcolm.

I am almost certain I've read somewhere in WoJ's (or seen in AMA event video) that Jim has explicitly stated this; but I cannot find it at the moment.
However the "offical or unoffical"  doesn't have any evidence either, not in the text.  It's a guess, Eb doesn't tell Harry that Margaret left Raith in 1968 and met Malcolm in 1969.  Margaret in the soul gaze doesn't tell Harry she left Lord Raith and then met Malcolm and fell in love.. None of that is written in Blood Rites, if you can find it please give it to me.. Otherwise its a guess, just like my speculation is..
Quote
Mira, this isn't a bad argument.  You could be correct.  However, I think there is another possibility to consider.  Something happened that allowed for Margaret to have an epiphany or see the light, whatever metaphorical expression you wish to choose.  Could Uriel have been involved?  It's possible and even makes sense, but let me get back to the main story.  Margaret finally sees through to the end game of the scheme she was working on with Lord Raith and Duchess Ariana.  We could say Margarite finally sees Raith for what he really is or discovers his connection to the Outsiders and perceives their plan.  Either explanation works, but the scales fall from Margarete's eyes and she understands that first she must get away.  She can't think through a plan to counter what she set in motion until she escapes.
  Yes, that is also possible..

I can also buy that conceiving a star born would be or could be part of the White Court plan....  I also think that it could have been very much a White Council plan, you gotta admit they are less than transparent on this little fact.  Though they toss out plenty of hints...

Okay, it's very hot and humid here and my brain is par boiled.. Here is a crazy theory to hang onto your tin foil hats boys and girls...

The star born skeem was actually hatched in an agreement between the White Court and the White Council, and Margaret was the designated incubator with Lord Raith as daddy... This could be one of the reasons why Eb almost irrationally hates vampires, or maybe just vampires of the White Court.  What is strange is there was a time when Eb would dine with Lord Raith, Arrianna, and Margaret, so he didn't always hate them.

Offline Talby16

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2025, 07:15:04 PM »
However the "offical or unoffical"  doesn't have any evidence either, not in the text.  It's a guess, Eb doesn't tell Harry that Margaret left Raith in 1968 and met Malcolm in 1969.  Margaret in the soul gaze doesn't tell Harry she left Lord Raith and then met Malcolm and fell in love.. None of that is written in Blood Rites, if you can find it please give it to me.. Otherwise its a guess, just like my speculation is..  Yes, that is also possible..

The official timeline does not need evidence in the text. Is it based upon speculation and guesswork? Yes, but it is official because Jim has given it his blessing and hosted it on his website. It is not completely filled in, but what is present is accurate according to Jim at this time. He can always contradict or change it later, but for now that time line is considered canon.

Okay, it's very hot and humid here and my brain is par boiled.. Here is a crazy theory to hang onto your tin foil hats boys and girls...

The star born skeem was actually hatched in an agreement between the White Court and the White Council, and Margaret was the designated incubator with Lord Raith as daddy... This could be one of the reasons why Eb almost irrationally hates vampires, or maybe just vampires of the White Court.  What is strange is there was a time when Eb would dine with Lord Raith, Arrianna, and Margaret, so he didn't always hate them.

I doubt that the White Council and White Court would scheme together. The White Court views vampires with distrust since they can corrupt and convert human wizards. The White Council, as the guardians of humanity, are naturally set against all other forces that seek to control/enslave/destroy humanity. Elaine and Harry are both starborn with two mortal parents. There is no reason for Maggie Sr to intentionally have a child with a white court vampire to create a starborn. Why would the White Council want a starborn that another group/organization has claim/influence over. Especially an organization that can bend others to their will like the White Council. Ebeneezer hates the White Court because Lord Raith killed his daughter. There is no need to find another motive for his hatred.

Offline Mira

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2025, 08:26:51 PM »
Quote
I doubt that the White Council and White Court would scheme together. The White Court views vampires with distrust since they can corrupt and convert human wizards. The White Council, as the guardians of humanity, are naturally set against all other forces that seek to control/enslave/destroy humanity. Elaine and Harry are both starborn with two mortal parents. There is no reason for Maggie Sr to intentionally have a child with a white court vampire to create a starborn. Why would the White Council want a starborn that another group/organization has claim/influence over. Especially an organization that can bend others to their will like the White Council. Ebeneezer hates the White Court because Lord Raith killed his daughter. There is no need to find another motive for his hatred.

As of now, there is no proof that Elaine is star born.

Offline g33k

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Re: Ghost Story--two things
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2025, 09:24:25 PM »
As of now, there is no proof that Elaine is star born.

You are correct.

Jim has been very cagey when pressed on this issue; she "has the potential" but I haven't seen (or read) him ever spilling those beans and confirming that she is, or denying it... it's entirely possible that he has different storylines in mind and hasn't even decided!!!

That DuMorne had (secretly) gotten hold of two "potential" Starborn without someone engaging in major chicanery strains and then shatters the bounds of credulity!