RNT Episode 5: What Changes (Mentally) When a Person Goes Full Red Court?

[Bridger]

You are assuming they would still have contact with their friends and close family, there is no evidence of that.. Even if they did,that doesn't biologically change what they have become, which is not human!  My dog behaves very human at times, but he isn't human.

I thought it was heavily implied that the Reds capture people of importance and 'turn' them, then allow that person to return to their former position, now fully influenced and controlled by the reds.  It is mentioned in Changes that a ton of politicians and business leaders all died/disappeared at the same time the red court died.

[Mira]

I thought it was heavily implied that the Reds capture people of importance and 'turn' them, then allow that person to return to their former position, now fully influenced and controlled by the reds.  It is mentioned in Changes that a ton of politicians and business leaders all died/disappeared at the same time the red court died.

I don't remember that.. However just because they appear "human" that doesn't mean that they were anymore.. Again, Bianca is a prime example of that, when stressed by Harry's sunshine hanky, she reverted to her true from, that ugly bat creature.  Susan as well, once she transformed into full Red Court Vamp becoming the youngest, when Harry cut her throat she was no longer human.

Of the half turned, once the vampire part of them died, if they were young enough the human survived, but those too old simply died.

[g33k]

...
I do, because it is an important point!  Also I think you are confusing White Court Vamps with Red Court Vamps, while both are vampires, they are nothing alike..  WCVs appear human and in most ways are very human, RCVs are not.. RCVs can put on a human mask, and act human, but there is nothing human about them as we saw when Harry pushed Bianca with his sunshine hanky.. 

I think the WC are human, yes; humans with a separate entity inside them, the "hunger demon."
Some Whampires are more in control, others less-so.  Mab says(implies?) that Thomas is human-enough to become a Knight, and Uriel seems to have a comparable level of interest in Whamps as he is in other Mortals.

RCV's are inhuman.  They're like insects that have a parasite eat its way out of them, killing them.  The half-turned Red is still human, but the full Rampire kills the host during birth.

None of which is to the point of the OP/topic:  how much of the mind (memories, predilections, etc) of the human host remain with the full Rampire?  Does the Ramp have the same "favorite color" as the human had?  Do they remember what that favorite color was?  Do they remember that "having a favorite color" is even a thing?

I will allege that some level of memory remains; while I think they're born ravenously-hungry, Rampires are too capable of "pretending" to be human, too quickly thereafter.  It appears VERY much that there must be some level of memory retained, or they wouldn't be able to "fake it" as well as they do.

[Mira]

RCV's are inhuman.  They're like insects that have a parasite eat its way out of them, killing them.  The half-turned Red is still human, but the full Rampire kills the host during birth.

I think you just made my case,

but the full Rampire kills the host during birth.

Dead, is D-E-A-D,  nothing remains of the host.. 

[g33k]

... Dead, is D-E-A-D,  nothing remains of the host.

You are wrong:  language remains.  Rampires can speak normally, and don't need years to re-learn "from birth."  Also:  ghosts remain; and ghosts retain the memories that would be so critical for a Rampire to "fake it 'til they make it."

Or maybe part of the Ramp birth-process is to take a magical "brain-scan" of the dying host -- the human's life flashes before the rampire's eyes...

[g33k]

...  It is mentioned in Changes that a ton of politicians and business leaders all died/disappeared at the same time the red court died.

I don't remember that...

Nevertheless, it's so.

It's in the chapter immediately following the one where Susan dies; Harry talks about the fallout from the destruction of the entire Red Court; so, not in-the-moment stuff or stuff Harry personally saw/experienced; but Harry telling us about things that he heard of, broadly.

[Mira]

It's in the chapter immediately following the one where Susan dies; Harry talks about the fallout from the destruction of the entire Red Court; so, not in-the-moment stuff or stuff Harry personally saw/experienced; but Harry telling us about things that he heard of, broadly.

That doesn't mean anything as far as something "human" remaining in the fully turned.  Bianca the main example we have was full
RCV, nothing human about her, but she appeared human to the eye and could be very charming, so could others in the world, but that doesn't mean that anything human remained of them...

[LordDresden2]

This question will be discussed on the next episode of Recorded Neutral Territory, with the most insightful answers being featured on the show. More information at the bottom of this post.


So we know that fully turning into a Red Court Vampire comes with clear and obvious physical changes (you're not a leathery bat-thing that can pretend to be human), but what, exactly, are the mental changes?

Butcher's world seems to imply that RC Vampires are automatically evil when they fully change. What changes cause this? Is it possible that a small number of them managed to hang on to their humanity somehow? Like "Angel" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

I doubt it...wait, no.

We've seen that Red-Ortega retained some of real Ortega's adoration of Arianna.  But like Mira, I still think a full Red Vampire is not the person who existed before.  I think that person dies in the transformation.

But the brain is still there, still full of information and data and habits and skills.  It's just that the soul that once used them has departed, and been replaced by this thing from the Nevernever.  So a Red Vampire might retain most or all of the knowledge, some of the habits, but like a Black Vampire, it's still a different entity from victim it replaced.

The White Vampires are different, the original human soul is still there, grafted on to the parasite.

That's why, among other things, WVs produce techbane when they use magic, and Red Vampires don't.