The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Molly’s trial… what if…
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry made his choice: he chose to be a cold-blooded monster, back in Changes.
He fully-expected that the wintermantle would make him a monster; he chose that.
--- End quote ---
You are leaving out a couple of things, 1] Uriel told him as long as he strayed from the path out of love he'd never stray so far that he could never return. 2] He had prearranged with Kincaid to kill him so he wouldn't become the monster he thought becoming Winter Knight would make him. 3] Uriel's seven words told him that it wasn't automatic that he'd become a monster. 4] Becoming Winter Knight was the least bad of a couple of very bad choices to save his daughter. 5] We are basing this monster crap on the fact that Slate was a very bad choice made by Maeve to begin with and the only example we have in real time except Harry on what a Winter Knight is like. Yes, the Mantle is hard to manage, but it can be managed. So while Harry did chose to become the Winter Knight to save his daughter, he did not chose to become a monster. I also think Harry becoming Mab's Knight is all part of a bigger plan, and we cannot go by what has happened before.
--- Quote ---He attempted to mitigate his monstrous choice by having himself killed; but that wasn't a sure thing, he knew he might get (un)lucky and survive.
When his elaborate suicide-plan failed, and Uriel whispered hope into his ear, he chose to go on.
--- End quote ---
Well, Kincaid usually doesn't miss, and Harry would have died, but Mab and Uriel made sure that he did survive. Uriel wouldn't have insisted on his soul walkabout so Harry would come out a monster. The seven words make it clear that his ultimate fate is always his choice just like the rest of us. Harry is in no more danger of becoming a monster than you or I if we make the wrong choices.
--- Quote from: g33k on January 23, 2025, 03:47:18 PM ---Harry made his choice: he chose to be a cold-blooded monster, back in Changes.
He fully-expected that the wintermantle would make him a monster; he chose that.
He attempted to mitigate his monstrous choice by having himself killed; but that wasn't a sure thing, he knew he might get (un)lucky and survive.
When his elaborate suicide-plan failed, and Uriel whispered hope into his ear, he chose to go on.
--- End quote ---
Nooneofconsequence:
“You begin to see the shape of my problems, my Knight.” She glanced at me. “You are a wolf. A predator. One they need.”
“I’m the hero Chicago deserves,” I said in my best overblown Batman voice. “But not the one it swiped on Tinder.”
Mab glanced at me wearily. “You know what it is,” she said, “to sell pieces of your soul so that someone who will never know your name will have another chance at life.”
Seems rather selfess, to me, not cold-blooded.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Nooneofconsequence on January 24, 2025, 03:09:11 AM ---“You begin to see the shape of my problems, my Knight.” She glanced at me. “You are a wolf. A predator. One they need.”
“I’m the hero Chicago deserves,” I said in my best overblown Batman voice. “But not the one it swiped on Tinder.”
Mab glanced at me wearily. “You know what it is,” she said, “to sell pieces of your soul so that someone who will never know your name will have another chance at life.”
Seems rather selfess, to me, not cold-blooded.
--- End quote ---
Yup
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 23, 2025, 10:40:54 PM --- ... 5] We are basing this monster crap on the fact that Slate ...
--- End quote ---
No: Harry based his decision on knowing that Lloyd Slate was a monster, and that Mab would also try to monster-ize Harry.
I'm not saying that Harry has become a monster; but he made that deal in the expectation that he would. He lives now in the hopes that he can resist, but the fear that he won't resist.
Nevertheless: at the time he made his choice, Harry fully-expected that choice to inevitably turn him into a monster. He believed it so thoroughly that he contracted with the 2nd-most-capable assassin he knew, to kill him before it could happen (the most capable being the Blackstaff, who he expected would refuse to kill him).
--- Quote from: Mira on January 23, 2025, 10:40:54 PM --- ... while Harry did chose to become the Winter Knight to save his daughter, he did not chose to become a monster ...
--- End quote ---
You say that like it's two separate things.
Harry chose to become a monster to save his daughter.
He just chose (what he saw as) the least-monstrous option available.
--- Quote from: Mira on January 23, 2025, 10:40:54 PM --- ... and Harry would have died, but Mab and Uriel made sure that he did survive ...
--- End quote ---
You're forgetting Ivy.
Ivy helped Harry survive, too! I'm unclear if she was read-in on the actual plan, or if Uriel whispered the inspiration into her ear.
Mira:
--- Quote ---No: Harry based his decision on knowing that Lloyd Slate was a monster, and that Mab would also try to monster-ize Harry.
--- End quote ---
I disagree there, he didn't base his decision on the fact that Slate was a monster. He never said, " gee Lloyd Slate was a monster, I want to be one too.." He did know what Mab would try to do, that's why he planned his suicide before hand.
--- Quote ---I'm not saying that Harry has become a monster; but he made that deal in the expectation that he would. He lives now in the hopes that he can resist, but the fear that he won't resist.
--- End quote ---
That's what he expected, that's why he arranged his death, so that wouldn't happen. Yes, that fear is there for all of us, but just being a wizard with all the power he has, that fear is always present if abused or should be. That is why a certain archangel made sure that he learn some very basic lessons about the soul and free will.
--- Quote ---You say that like it's two separate things.
Harry chose to become a monster to save his daughter.
He just chose (what he saw as) the least-monstrous option available.
--- End quote ---
It is two different things, Harry didn't chose to become a monster, he chose to take the risk of becoming, based on what Uriel told him as he layed there with his broken back.. If what he does, he does out of love, he will never stray so far from the path that he cannot come back. He arranged for his death, then agreed to become Mab's Knight. The other two options that would give him enough power was taking up a coin and becoming a Denarian.. Yeah, possible he could have rejected it later, but maybe not so easy.. Or becoming a mini-god, with Darkhallow, not that great an option either.. Yes, it was the best of a couple of bad options, otherwise if he did nothing he remained helpless while the Red King sacrificed his daughter, along with him and his grandfather.. Unless you can suggest some better options that Harry didn't explore in Changes that might have been more morally acceptable?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version