The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry's full name
g33k:
--- Quote from: vincentric on November 20, 2024, 09:57:34 PM ---Harry has power to affect Mother Winter, he summoned her, Titania and Mab(willing summons) in Cold Days. What he does not have is the power to compel them to obey him.
--- End quote ---
I think he doesn't have the power to "summon" them.
The thing he calls a "summoning" is more like a highly-interesting lure.
Remember when he "summoned" Lea... and got Mab.
Remember when he "summoned" Uriel (as if).
Remember the early books, where he "summoned" Toot ... which was, very explicitly, a lure-and-trap (despite how very weak a faerie Toot is).
TrueMonk:
Some of these lures include a trap though. He would have been successfull in capturing the Erlking in Dead Beat with a circle he made pretty fast. Based on that it seems likely that if he made a circle more in league with the one which held the Loupgarou then he could have held the Erlking prisoner and bargained with him.
I think the lure vs. summon depends on the power level and relationship of the two involved. Mother winter had to respond to Harry because his request was legitimate, but he could (obviously) not have forced her to show up except though obligations between Mother Winter and Winter Knight. But with a being closer to his own power level (like the Erlking apparently) he can force the being to show up if he knows the right names, ritual ingredients etc.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think the lure vs. summon depends on the power level and relationship of the two involved. Mother winter had to respond to Harry because his request was legitimate, but he could (obviously) not have forced her to show up except though obligations between Mother Winter and Winter Knight. But with a being closer to his own power level (like the Erlking apparently) he can force the being to show up if he knows the right names, ritual ingredients etc.
--- End quote ---
I have to go back and read, but I seem to remember he was able to "summon" Mother Winter because he did use one of her names or titles that isn't either widely used or known. She wasn't very happy about it and that's when Mother Summer explained that since Mother Winter lost her walking stick getting around was very painful for her.
--- Quote ---Remember when he "summoned" Lea... and got Mab.
--- End quote ---
If I remember correctly that was in Proven Guilty and the reason that time was because Lea was on ice taking the cure for Nemesis infestation.
--- Quote ---Remember when he "summoned" Uriel (as if).
--- End quote ---
Exactly, I remember Uriel smiling at Harry's mental circle, and muttered something like, "nice try."
--- Quote ---Remember the early books, where he "summoned" Toot ... which was, very explicitly, a lure-and-trap (despite how very weak a faerie Toot is).
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but Harry wanted Toot, and Toot came, the trapping happened once Toot showed up and couldn't resist the yummy bread that just happened to have a drop of Harry's blood on it, which trapped him.
--- Quote ---Harry has power to affect Mother Winter, he summoned her, Titania and Mab(willing summons) in Cold Days. What he does not have is the power to compel them to obey him.
--- End quote ---
That gets a bit tricky, he can bargain, and he can get some information from them..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 21, 2024, 12:29:31 PM --- I have to go back and read, but I seem to remember he was able to "summon" Mother Winter because he did use one of her names or titles that isn't either widely used or known. She wasn't very happy about it and that's when Mother Summer explained that since Mother Winter lost her walking stick getting around was very painful for her ...
--- End quote ---
I'm going to allege here that MW came not because she had to, but because she wanted to. Harry used several of the Names that apply to her; none of them really central; but all of them relevant and... interesting... to her.
I don't think the "pain" mattered to her in the slightest: she "wasn't happy" because "happy" is the kind of the antithesis of Mother Winter's personality.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 21, 2024, 12:29:31 PM ---... If I remember correctly that was in Proven Guilty and the reason that time was because Lea was on ice taking the cure for Nemesis infestation ...
--- End quote ---
It was Dead Beat, not PG; but yes, we presume Lea was a sidhecicle at the time.
The point, however, is that Harry summoned the Leanansidhe and got Queen Mab instead.
So the "rules of summoning" are (to cross some streams) really more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules; welcome to the writings of Jim Butcher (who delights in misleading the fans).
(I do suspect the rules are far stricter and more literal around malevolent entities like Outsiders, and the Fallen)
--- Quote from: Mira on November 21, 2024, 12:29:31 PM --- ... Yeah, but Harry wanted Toot, and Toot came ...
--- End quote ---
My point here is that even with Toot -- one of the very-weakest of all the entities he "summons" -- Harry isn't "summoning" him, in the sense of "making him" come.
Harry is luring them, one and all; attracting their attention & giving a sense of something they want, something they're interested in.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think the "pain" mattered to her in the slightest: she "wasn't happy" because "happy" is the kind of the antithesis of Mother Winter's personality.
--- End quote ---
So you think Mother Summer wasn't telling Harry the truth or exaggerating? Can the Mothers lie or are they under the same constraint as the rest of the Fae?
--- Quote ---My point here is that even with Toot -- one of the very-weakest of all the entities he "summons" -- Harry isn't "summoning" him, in the sense of "making him" come.
Harry is luring them, one and all; attracting their attention & giving a sense of something they want, something they're interested in.
--- End quote ---
Semantics, calling, summoning, making them come, call it what you will, there is a ritual that is performed and the being called comes.
--- Quote ---It was Dead Beat, not PG; but yes, we presume Lea was a sidhecicle at the time.
The point, however, is that Harry summoned the Leanansidhe and got Queen Mab instead.
So the "rules of summoning" are (to cross some streams) really more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules; welcome to the writings of Jim Butcher (who delights in misleading the fans).
--- End quote ---
I may have not made myself clear, in Dead Beat Harry summons Lea, but gets Mab instead which surprises him. Because he was specific about whom he was summoning, Lea... Mab has an explanation, page 198-199 Dead Beat..
--- Quote ---"Disturb me? Hardly. I am here only to fulfill the duties I have been obliged to take upon myself. It is no fault of thine that this summons reached my ears.
I straightened up slowly and avoided her eyes. "I had expected my godmother to come."
Mab smiled. Her teeth were small white and perfect, her canines delicately sharp. "Alas. The Leanansidhe is tied up at the moment."
--- End quote ---
On the next page Mab goes on to say that something is not right with Lea, that she is challenging her authority etc.. Harry asks her what she has done to Lea?
199 Dead Beat;
--- Quote ---"She is bound," Mab said. "She is in some discomfort. But she is in no danger. Once she acknowledges who rules Winter, she will be restored to her station. I can ill afford the loss of so potent a vassal."
--- End quote ---
So the summons wasn't random as in calling up Lea and getting Mab instead. Mab clearly states that she came instead of Lea because Lea couldn't come, not because Harry summoned Lea and Mab felt like coming instead. And yes, in Proven Guilty we find Lea tied up or encased more accurately in ice taking the cure for Nemesis infestation. Clearly that was what Mab was telling Harry when she said that Lea was bound, in some discomfort, but going to be fine, hopefully.
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