The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 24, 2024, 06:50:20 AM ---Interesting that Morgan didn't insist on soul gazing Harry, you'd think that he would given his misgivings.
That is if the White Council is even worried about Outsiders or Nemesis, with the exception of Rashid and Harry I think it is unlikely that they are for the most part. Rashid hints at this, that even the Senior Council knows very little about what he really does at the Gates, and apparently Rashid tells them very little. When a potential young warlock is soul gazed, what they are interested in is how far down that road he or she has traveled and if he or she can be redeemed.. However I doubt they look very far beyond that.
--- End quote ---
From the Donald Morgan Microfiction:
"From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."
Morgan knew about Nemesis and that means that the Merlin knew. I don't think it matters if the rest of the Senior Council knew, though I would guess that least one or two of them did.
As far as the reference to Harry possibly being a "destroyer," I think that is almost certainly tied up with Harry being starborn. One more key element, or maybe the key element, that we do not yet understand about what it means to be starborn. It is probably what Martha Liberty meant when she said to Ebenezar about Harry in Summer Knight, "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk. "
--- Quote from: Mira on November 24, 2024, 06:50:20 AM ---That was also because Talia Winters was a psychic herself, and it was all part of the intrigue with the Psychcorps and Bester, it's been a while since I saw B5. However I do remember the episode where Talia was required to scan a convicted criminal before he was sentenced. Since he knew what she was going to do, the murderer in turn screwed with her mind. It is possible that Nemesis could do the same thing if it was detected in a scan.. I believe that was one of the reasons why Rashid told Harry not to attempt it.
--- End quote ---
I've wondered about the same thing. Can Nemesis do something that would cause serious harm to a wizard that was soulgazing a person that nemesis was hiding in? Screw with that wizards mind or what about infecting that wizard? It is something that I would consider asking Jim about the next time he does a Reddit Q&A session or if I were to see him in person at a Con or book signing.
Mira:
--- Quote ---From the Donald Morgan Microfiction:
"From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."
Morgan knew about Nemesis and that means that the Merlin knew. I don't think it matters if the rest of the Senior Council knew, though I would guess that least one or two of them did.
--- End quote ---
Which is an interesting statement, because if they knew what Nemesis was and feared that Harry might be under the influence, why didn't they just ask Rashid to have a look at him? Or really check Harry out with their wizard sight? And yes, it can be done.
page 339 Cold Days;
--- Quote ---I nodded, thinking. "Okay," I said. "First, how do you know if the adversary has. . .infested someone?" "Experience," he said. "Decades of it. The Sight can help but. . . Rashid hesitated. I recognized it instantly, the hiccup in one's thoughts when one stumbled over a truly hideous memory gained with the Sight, like I had with-- Ugh. -- the naagloshii. I don't recommend making a regular practice of it," he continued. "It's an art, not a skill, and it takes time. Time, or a bit of questionable attention from the Fates and a ridiculously enormous tool." He tapped a finger against his false eye.
--- End quote ---
You'd think the Merlin, even Morgan would have experience enough, maybe Eb was the only one outside of Rashid who could handle looking at Harry with the Sight? I am thinking that maybe as Rashid said before, the Council really doesn't know what he does, because he easily could have settled the matter about young Harry being infested or not
--- Quote ---As far as the reference to Harry possibly being a "destroyer," I think that is almost certainly tied up with Harry being starborn. One more key element, or maybe the key element, that we do not yet understand about what it means to be starborn. It is probably what Martha Liberty meant when she said to Ebenezar about Harry in Summer Knight, "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk. "
--- End quote ---
Which makes me wonder and I have written about this before whether or not the White Council was itself trying to breed it's own starborn, one that they can control.. When Margaret took matters into her own hands so to speak, the Council still got a starborn, but not one they could control. The Council knows what it wanted him or her for, but not what Margaret wanted, so Harry couldn't be trusted.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 24, 2024, 08:02:12 PM ---Which is an interesting statement, because if they knew what Nemesis was and feared that Harry might be under the influence, why didn't they just ask Rashid to have a look at him? Or really check Harry out with their wizard sight? And yes, it can be done...
--- End quote ---
I think Rashid's Eye is likely the best tool; but I don't think even that is 100% foolproof. And I don't believe anyone on the Council -- not even Eb or the Merlin -- really understands what Rashid does as "Gatekeeper." It's a role that transcends the White Council, and is not subject to WC rules, or rulings. They cannot order the Gatekeeper to do anything (they can order Rashid, as WC wizard; but nothing in regards to his duties or identity as Gatekeeper).
--- Quote from: Mira on November 24, 2024, 08:02:12 PM --- ... Which makes me wonder and I have written about this before whether or not the White Council was itself trying to breed it's own starborn, one that they can control.. When Margaret took matters into her own hands so to speak, the Council still got a starborn, but not one they could control. The Council knows what it wanted him or her for, but not what Margaret wanted, so Harry couldn't be trusted.
--- End quote ---
We are pretty sure that a "Black Council" cabal -- including Duchess Arianna & Raith Père -- had recruited Margaret LeFey to be the mother of a Starbabe that they would control. Instead, she broke free from Lord Raith ... and unexpectedly found true love, and bore a Starborn child with Malcolm Dresden!
My own theory is that it was all a plot of Mab's, in search of an adequate Knight for the upcoming apocalypse: setting Maggie first on that "starbabe" path, and then getting her out from under Black Council influence.
I think it reasonably-likely that the White Council had their own "starbabe plan," though I think there's less evidence in canonical texts or in WoJ's (anyone got cites?) ...
Here's a fun theory: Elaine was the WC's plan, and they "lost track" of her too (likely a Mab or Lea machination); then when she re-surfaced, she seemed to be a "failed attempt" (in that she carefully showed up during tests as not-quite-WC-caliber). It'd be a nice element of how Jim writes Elaine as Harry's "opposite number" in many regards.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think Rashid's Eye is likely the best tool; but I don't think even that is 100% foolproof. And I don't believe anyone on the Council -- not even Eb or the Merlin -- really understands what Rashid does as "Gatekeeper." It's a role that transcends the White Council, and is not subject to WC rules, or rulings. They cannot order the Gatekeeper to do anything (they can order Rashid, as WC wizard; but nothing in regards to his duties or identity as Gatekeeper).
--- End quote ---
Nothing is fool proof, and I agree that the Council have no idea the significance of either Rashid's job, or Harry's job for that matter, Rashid said as much in Cold Days. I wouldn't say the job as Gatekeeper transcends the Council, apparently if the general view is the one that Harry had the first time he saw the Gates that they cannot be real, they are supposed to be a metaphor. So I think rulings from Council can transcend, but rulings are rare. I also think if the Council was really interested in whether or not young Harry was infested they would have done a better job of checking him out. And since it is Rashid's main job or one of them to keep Outsiders out, I doubt he'd object to doing a scan himself, in fact I'd think he'd insist.
--- Quote ---We are pretty sure that a "Black Council" cabal -- including Duchess Arianna & Raith Père -- had recruited Margaret LeFey to be the mother of a Starbabe that they would control. Instead, she broke free from Lord Raith ... and unexpectedly found true love, and bore a Starborn child with Malcolm Dresden!
--- End quote ---
Perhaps, but I am just as sure that the White Council wanted to breed a starborn of their own.. Margaret refused to be used by either side. At some point she changed her mind and had a star born child with Malcolm. What changed her mind? No doubt she had been to the Gates, she and Rashid were close friends, Mab and Lea may also have had a hand in it.
--- Quote ---Here's a fun theory: Elaine was the WC's plan, and they "lost track" of her too (likely a Mab or Lea machination); then when she re-surfaced, she seemed to be a "failed attempt" (in that she carefully showed up during tests as not-quite-WC-caliber). It'd be a nice element of how Jim writes Elaine as Harry's "opposite number" in many regards.
--- End quote ---
I don't think the White Council even tested Elaine, after Harry killed Justin she fled to Summer where she stayed for a number of years and might very well have infested Aurora. After that she kept such a low profile that she attracted no more notice from the Council than the other low level talents making up the Paranet.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 25, 2024, 10:16:53 PM --- ... I don't think the White Council even tested Elaine, after Harry killed Justin she fled to Summer where she stayed for a number of years and might very well have infested Aurora. After that she kept such a low profile that she attracted no more notice from the Council than the other low level talents making up the Paranet.
--- End quote ---
They didn't test her in the DuMorne aftermath, no (when they collected Harry); they never connected her with DuMorne; she only appeared on-scene much later.
Warden Ramirez tested Elaine, out in LA. Harry called to "check up on her bona fides" & Carlos confirmed it.
She wasn't quite up to WC standards... but she was close, and recognizably well-trained in WC fundamentals.
He joked that if the Rampire War continued its horrible attrition, they might have to lower their standards a little bit -- just to keep WC numbers up -- and she'd be in.
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