The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 21, 2024, 04:53:16 PM --- ... At any rate, even if he saw Nemesis or the taint of an Outsider in her, he wouldn't have known what he was seeing. He may know now, but we have never heard Harry ever talk about what he saw in his soul gaze with Elaine. He has mentioned before what he has seen in other soul gazes, but never what he saw in the one he had with Elaine.
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Harry has also mentioned that the Soulgaze (like other Wizards' Sight phenomena) are "do not dim with time" experiences. So Harry still remembers (with 100% clarity) the teenaged soulgaze with Elaine, and can consult it with his modern perspective.
If Outsider-traces were there -- and detectible -- modern-day Harry would know.
OTOH, you're right that it'd be really interesting to know exactly what he did see, when he soulgazed Elaine!
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 10, 2024, 10:39:26 PM ---What are you suggesting? ...
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Mainly, I'm refuting the idea that Elaine's Nemfected-or-Not status is something a soulgaze (or any other magical inspection really) is likely to detect.
Mira:
--- Quote from: g33k on November 21, 2024, 10:57:57 PM ---Mainly, I'm refuting the idea that Elaine's Nemfected-or-Not status is something a soulgaze (or any other magical inspection really) is likely to detect.
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Very possible, but one still has to know or have some idea of what they are looking at. At the age that Harry and Elaine soul gazed, Harry would have no clue that he was looking at Outsider taint or Nemesis. To your point, Eb soul gazed 16 year old Harry after the fight with HWWB and while Eb mentions seeing anger, he makes no mention of Harry being tainted by either an Outsider or Nemesis. I think Eb would know that kind of taint if he saw it in a soul gaze.
KurtinStGeorge:
I am beginning to doubt that a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. I’m not where I can grab my copy of Cold Days, but doesn’t the Gate Keeper need his special eye; that is made from the same material as the Outer Gates itself, to detect Nemesis in a Winter soldier who is wounded and is being brought back through the Gates to our reality? Granted, that the fae are not human, but Rashid used that eye to scan Harry in Turn Coat, rather than soulgazing him. So, I’m guessing Rashid’s special eye is a better tool for this purpose or possibly the only tool he has for this purpose.
Let’s look at who soulgazed Harry and why this gives us a clue about detecting Nemesis. The Merlin personally soulgazed the teenage warlock who was executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, prior to his trial. So, this makes me think that before his trial someone from the Council must have soulgazed Harry.
I think it was Ebenezar; because I also believe it would have been mentioned if Warden Morgan or the Merlin had soulgazed Harry. In all of the occasions when Harry has talked about either of those two characters, you would think that experience would have been mentioned by now. We know Eb soulgazed Harry at some point in time, just not exactly when. In Summer Knight Harry says he “shared a soulgaze” with Eb at sometime in the past, but is non-specific about the circumstances of that soulgaze.
It may not be likely, but I suppose it is also possible that prior to his trial someone else on the Council soulgazed Harry. However, I don’t think it would be very good writing if in a future novel a member of the Wardens or anyone else on the Council; we haven’t been introduced to yet, would suddenly appear and say to Harry, “You remember me, of course. I soulgazed you right after you were captured.” That kind of writing would feel like like something I would see on the CW, some Netflix show or recent Disney series. I don’t think Jim would do that, I’m just trying to cover all possible bases here.
Here’s the main point I’m trying to make. It doesn’t matter if Ebenezar or some unknown character on the White Council soulgazed Harry. This unknown character would be someone with experience and the trust of the Senior Council. So either Eb or this notional character should have been able to recognize if Harry had been tampered with by Nemesis. Right?
Not only that, both Eb and my unknown character would have had a duty to tell the Council that Harry had been tampered with, no matter how much it would have hurt Ebenezar to do so. On the other hand, Ebenezar and my make believe character’s sworn word should have been enough for Morgan, the Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council to know that Harry was not tainted by Nemesis.
That is, unless the Wardens and Senior Council do not believe a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. It could be, the hidden personality inside someone tainted by Nemesis is buried so deep, it can’t be seen by a soulgaze, unless Nemesis wants to be seen.
Once again, I am obliquely reminded of the Babylon 5 character Talia Winter’s, who had to have a special psychic password sent to her to force her hidden personality to the surface. Lyra Alexander; the other telepath on Babylon 5, couldn’t just scan Talia to find this personality. She needed a special psychic tool to do what needed to be done. Much like the Gate Keeper needs his special eye to detect Nemesis.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I am beginning to doubt that a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. I’m not where I can grab my copy of Cold Days, but doesn’t the Gate Keeper need his special eye; that is made from the same material as the Outer Gates itself, to detect Nemesis in a Winter soldier who is wounded and is being brought back through the Gates to our reality? Granted, that the fae are not human, but Rashid used that eye to scan Harry in Turn Coat, rather than soulgazing him. So, I’m guessing Rashid’s special eye is a better tool for this purpose or possibly the only tool he has for this purpose.
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I agree for the most part, however I am not totally convinced that a soul gaze or perhaps the wizard's "third eye" might also spot it. However I also remember Rashid telling Harry not to attempt it, that it takes a huge amount of experience and then easy to get wrong. So it's possible if it was there, that Eb, because of age and experience might have spotted it, if it was there when he soul gazed young Harry, but not a sure thing. Extremely doubtful that young Harry with no experience or knowledge of Outsiders or Nemesis would have spotted it in a soul gaze with Elaine.
--- Quote ---Let’s look at who soulgazed Harry and why this gives us a clue about detecting Nemesis. The Merlin personally soulgazed the teenage warlock who was executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, prior to his trial. So, this makes me think that before his trial someone from the Council must have soulgazed Harry.
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That was Eb, he mentions it in Blood Rites and said he saw a lot of anger, talent, and power, but nothing not redeemable.
It isn't said whether another also soul gazed Harry, what's the point of doing it twice? Though I supposed because he was his grandson Eb wanted to make sure if Harry was going to get the chop it was for the right reasons. As the Blackstaff no one would argue with him doing it.
--- Quote ---Here’s the main point I’m trying to make. It doesn’t matter if Ebenezar or some unknown character on the White Council soulgazed Harry. This unknown character would be someone with experience and the trust of the Senior Council. So either Eb or this notional character should have been able to recognize if Harry had been tampered with by Nemesis. Right?
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If we go by Molly's trial, a Warden typically does the soul gaze and testifies as to what he or she saw. Harry soul gazed Molly, and as Warden testified as to what he saw. Interesting that Morgan didn't insist on soul gazing Harry, you'd think that he would given his misgivings.
--- Quote ---Not only that, both Eb and my unknown character would have had a duty to tell the Council that Harry had been tampered with, no matter how much it would have hurt Ebenezar to do so. On the other hand, Ebenezar and my make believe character’s sworn word should have been enough for Morgan, the Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council to know that Harry was not tainted by Nemesis.
That is, unless the Wardens and Senior Council do not believe a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. It could be, the hidden personality inside someone tainted by Nemesis is buried so deep, it can’t be seen by a soulgaze, unless Nemesis wants to be seen.
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That is if the White Council is even worried about Outsiders or Nemesis, with the exception of Rashid and Harry I think it is unlikely that they are for the most part. Rashid hints at this, that even the Senior Council knows very little about what he really does at the Gates, and apparently Rashid tells them very little. When a potential young warlock is soul gazed, what they are interested in is how far down that road he or she has traveled and if he or she can be redeemed.. However I doubt they look very far beyond that.
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Once again, I am obliquely reminded of the Babylon 5 character Talia Winter’s, who had to have a special psychic password sent to her to force her hidden personality to the surface. Lyra Alexander; the other telepath on Babylon 5, couldn’t just scan Talia to find this personality. She needed a special psychic tool to do what needed to be done. Much like the Gate Keeper needs his special eye to detect Nemesis.
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That was also because Talia Winters was a psychic herself, and it was all part of the intrigue with the Psychcorps and Bester, it's been a while since I saw B5. However I do remember the episode where Talia was required to scan a convicted criminal before he was sentenced. Since he knew what she was going to do, the murderer in turn screwed with her mind. It is possible that Nemesis could do the same thing if it was detected in a scan.. I believe that was one of the reasons why Rashid told Harry not to attempt it.
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