The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Attitudes and opinions about DF changing with age?

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KurtinStGeorge:
One of things I appreciate about the Dresden Files as I get older; I started reading the books in 2007, is seeing Harry feeling the weight of the decisions he has made over time.  Even in the early books Harry is given some hard lessons that get him to rethink some of his beliefs, change his ways of handling various situations and give him a better understand the potential consequences of his decisions.  The easiest example of this how Harry not clueing in Kim Delany on how greater magic circles worked led to her death.  I'm not forgetting that Kim's failure to tell Harry why she wanted to learn how these type of circles functioned was also a major contributor to the Loup Garou killing her, but I'm not here to discuss the decisions and actions of minor characters.

Today, even though it's obvious that there many things Harry still has to learn, he feels like a person who has matured, who has learned lessons and feels the weight of the responsibilities he has taken on.  Perhaps because a number of other fantasy series take place within a much shorter time frame, the main characters rarely feel like they have grown and lived to the same degree they have grown in power.

There is a book series I am currently reading where I am about the 9th or 10th book.  It is called the Arcane Casebook series by Dan Willis.  It takes place in an alternate version of 1930's New York, where magic doesn't simply exist, it is a part of everyday life.  It's raining and you don't have an umbrella but have to catch a taxi to go somewhere?  You activate a simple protection rune and the rain never lands on you, ice cold winds don't hit you face and you feel warm and cozy, though the protection is temporary, maybe half an hour.  The main character is a private detective who is also runewright who uses magic to solve crimes.  Runewrights are not the most powerful types of magic users; in fact most of them work for minimum wages making minor league runes for ordinary tasks.  However the main character, Private Detective Alex Lockerby has been taught writing runes and being a detective from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who has faked his own death and is living under an assumed named in New York City.

I am not putting this series down.  Most of the books have been a fun read and the plots and mysteries are generally well thought out.  Within the book world the series has progressed about eight or nine years, Alex has made new friends and allies, learned more about both his craft and the wider world.  He has lost friends and a lover and seen a lot of misery in the world around him.  Yet, the main character doesn't feel like he has changed very much since the first book.  There is a lack of gravitas there.  Or, at least that is how I see it.

As far as appreciating the motivations and feelings of the older characters in the Dresden Files, that is more of a mixed bag.  For example, there is a micro fiction where we read that Morgan felt bad that he couldn't protect a young Harry the way Margaret LeFay had asked him to.  But Morgan also thought it might be a good idea to kill a grown Harry.  We don't really know why.  What do they fear Harry will become?  I used to think it was Harry becoming a new version of Kemmler.  Then I thought that Harry's potential; according to Lash, to hold power over Outsiders was what the Council feared.  Harry might use the Outsiders to become a dangerous and out of control power in his own right.  But the more I think about it the more I think these types of fears are too small.  Mab may have hinted what the Council and even Ebenezer really fears, that Harry might one day be able to become an immortal.  A being more powerful than the entire White Council.  Ebenezar seemed very agitated in Battle Ground when Mab said to Harry, "Immortality offers a significant advantage, but it is no substitute for intelligence.  Remember that young wizard. Should it for some bizarre reason ever be necessary."

As far as Ebenezar's greater depth of knowledge of the workings of the White Court, it makes sense the Eb has seen more than Harry has, but Harry has probably seen a lot more than Ebenzar gives him credit for.  Harry saw first hand how the thralls of the White Court were treated at the gathering of the three main White Court factions.  Harry soulgazed a women who had been victimized by Madeline Raith.  Harry also overheard the psychic attack the Skavis agent used against Elaine.  Ebenezar has suffered a greater personal loss at the hands of the White Court.  Perhaps in Twelve Months we will find out what Ebenezar was talking about and Harry will learn things about the White Court he didn't know before.  If that doesn't happen then I would suspect that Eb's personal loss and the feelings they generated overwhelmed his rational mind.

In fact, now that I think about it, if Harry and Ebenzar were real people, I would advise grief counseling for Harry, but a much deeper intervention for Ebenezar.  Of the two of them, Ebenezar's loss of control was more troubling than Harry's was.  Not the Harry starting to crush Rudolph to death wasn't troubling, but his reaction to seeing Karin gunned down by Rudolph was understandable if not rational.  Ebenezar tried to kill Harry because he was angry that Harry wouldn't obey him.  That, and finding out a White Court vampire is his grandson.  Ebenezar's desire to protect Harry ran totally out of control into Eb trying to kill Harry.  Now I think I have a better understanding of how Ebenzar drove his daughter away from him.

Mira:

--- Quote ---As far as Ebenezar's greater depth of knowledge of the workings of the White Court, it makes sense the Eb has seen more than Harry has, but Harry has probably seen a lot more than Ebenzar gives him credit for.  Harry saw first hand how the thralls of the White Court were treated at the gathering of the three main White Court factions.  Harry soulgazed a women who had been victimized by Madeline Raith.  Harry also overheard the psychic attack the Skavis agent used against Elaine.  Ebenezar has suffered a greater personal loss at the hands of the White Court.  Perhaps in Twelve Months we will find out what Ebenezar was talking about and Harry will learn things about the White Court he didn't know before.  If that doesn't happen then I would suspect that Eb's personal loss and the feelings they generated overwhelmed his rational mind.

In fact, now that I think about it, if Harry and Ebenzar were real people, I would advise grief counseling for Harry, but a much deeper intervention for Ebenezar.  Of the two of them, Ebenezar's loss of control was more troubling than Harry's was.  Not the Harry starting to crush Rudolph to death wasn't troubling, but his reaction to seeing Karin gunned down by Rudolph was understandable if not rational.  Ebenezar tried to kill Harry because he was angry that Harry wouldn't obey him.  That, and finding out a White Court vampire is his grandson.  Ebenezar's desire to protect Harry ran totally out of control into Eb trying to kill Harry.  Now I think I have a better understanding of how Ebenzar drove his daughter away from him.

--- End quote ---

Yes, there are lessons there for all of us older folks reading the series.  Ebenezar mourns driving his daughter away, but has he learned anything over the years?  He thinks he was too hard or strict if we believe what he said in Blood Rites.  But was that it?  Or was it another way to drive the young away, "do as I say,not as I do.."  That's why when Harry found out that Eb was the Blackstaff after idolizing him for his morals and the way he looked at magic was so alienated for a time.  I can imagine Margaret feeling the same way, especially from what little we've learned about her rebellion against the White Council.  She was so alienated that it drove her into the arms of Lord Raith among other unsavory characters and commit crimes.  The other lesson Eb didn't seem to learn because he thinks because he is older, seen a lot, supposedly much wiser, he fell into the same trap and lot of us parents and older folks fall into, "because I said so..."  No open mind to the times or that circumstances might changed in his long years. " Dad gum it!  White Court vamps are bad, always have been bad, and you can't trust them!"  No, he didn't say it like that, but that's what he meant...

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: Mira on October 08, 2024, 11:57:25 AM ---I am not sure what you mean here, because when we first meet Martin, Susan was already infected and partly turned.  If I remember correctly, Martin knew about them, still brought her to town with him, it was a set up.
--- End quote ---

I doubt that.  Yeah, he brought her to town with him, but the two had been working together already and they had business in Chicago.  I think Martin thought that they should stick to that business, and that Susan should avoid Harry.  Harry, for his part, was still in a certain amount of denial about his relationship with Susan, as we saw by his jealous suspicion that she was 'with' Martin now.

Yeah, later on Martin manipulated the destruction of the Red Court using Harry and Susan, but it's usually a mistake of ascribe uber-chessmaster status to characters years ahead of time.


--- Quote --- In other words knowing the chemistry, Martin made both of them part of his long term plans.  After Harry's rescue from Nic when Shiro took his place, Martin knew full well that Harry was weakened, wounded, thus vulnerable, he also knew what the smell of blood would drive Susan to.. Yet he had her take Harry to his place.  So while Martin may have warned Susan, throwing them together when biological forces were so strong coupled with emotional was asking for trouble.  Yeah, some common sense prevailed, i.e. Harry tied Susan up so she wouldn't outright kill him during their sex, but that doesn't mean he was in control, he was driven by his needs and the overpowering effect of the vamp venom.
--- End quote ---

This is what I mean by over-ascribing planning.  If Martin was trying to manipulate them into a sexual encounter, why?  What does he gain by that, at that point in time?  Also, he would certainly know that the most likely result of any such encounter would be a dead Harry and a Red Vampire Susan, who would then be loyal to the Red Court and know a bunch of valuable secrets about the Fellowship of St. Giles.

Yes, Harry is a Council Wizard.  Yes, it's plausible that he has magic strong enough to survive such an encounter.  But Martin would need to be able to know that for reasonably sure, and also know that such a Wizard would end up trapped by his own defenses alone with Susan, and not have some magical means to quench the lust.  It's a lot of unknowns that Martin couldn't possibly manipulate or know, he's extremely smart and capable, but still basically human.

If Harry's emergency defense shield had permitted him to leave, he could have knocked Susan out and gotten away before they got carried away.  If circumstances had been just slightly different, they might never have ended up trapped together at all.  Etc.


--- Quote --- 

It did end, remember Susan went to South America shortly after she was infected.  However that didn't end how Harry felt about her, he wanted to marry her.  At that point in time Harry still thought he was all alone, he didn't know who Thomas was and he still believed that Elaine was dead.  If you will remember he became obsessed with trying to find a cure for Susan, was in a deep clinical depression over guilt and her leaving at the beginning of Summer Knight.  I don't know if you have ever been there in your life, I have.  While yes, common sense says the relationship was ended and it was for the good of all, emotions play a stronger role, Harry is a sensitive guy and couldn't deal with it.  Easy to say the relationship had ended, but in practice, in Harry's heart it hadn't.  I say that as an older woman who did find that life went on, found my life partner after, but I understand all too well what Harry was dealing with.
--- End quote ---

So do I.  But at the same time, my older self recognizes the danger of it.  I'm not saying I blame Harry for reacting the way he did.  Only that I recognize that his reaction was both natural...and futile.

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: Mira on October 08, 2024, 11:57:25 AM ---

--- Quote ---There are enforcers for a secret society who consider themselves entitled to behead children for breaking rules they don't know exist, and they do it right here in Chicago...and you can't interfere.  You have to look the other way.

There are whole families of super-powered sex predators and rapists (the White Court) who prey on innocents, sometimes to the point of death, rape their minds and bodies, right here in Chicago, including teens (at least)...and you must not try to interfere.

And so on.  Do you think the Karrin of that time could have accepted the necessity of looking the other way?  But if she doesn't, a lot of good cops die for no reason, other people's lives get shattered, probably some cops end up imprisoned (which can be a fate worse than death) by the supernaturals manipulating the system, her family might pay a steep price too?  Could she accept the reality of that, before the loup garou rubbed her nose in reality?
--- End quote ---

Actually Harry if you will remember didn't feel that Karrin should look the other way.. He was horrified about the kangaroo courts that the Council held or often didn't bother with before they chopped off the heads of kids they felt were going warlock.  No, Murphy wouldn't accept the reality of that, but the truth is, neither did Harry. 
--- End quote ---

He accepted it enough that he knew he couldn't stop it.  He accepted it enough that he knew he had to keep Karrin in the dark until she was ready to face up toe the cold fact of the Council's overwhelming power.

Yeah, he hated it.  He still hates it, he just knows it's necessary now.  He's still casting around for some other solution, but so far he hasn't found one.


--- Quote ---
Actually you can argue that Murphy did accept it, she had no problem acting as judge, jury, and executioner for Nic in Skin Game, though she claimed she was no longer a Holy Knight she used a Holy Sword in an illegal manner.  While doing that she also violated every oath she ever took as a police officer and got a Holy Sword shattered.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, but that came much, much later.  The turning point for Karrin was the loup garou rampage at the police station.  That forced her, by brutal example, to accept the reality of the overwhelming power of the supernatural, and that she cannot be in control when dealing with it.  It rubbed her nose in reality.

Even after that, she would periodically start to slip back into her former mode of thinking, because the Law was her comfort belief, and because she desperately hates feeling out of control.  In Death Masks, when they were about to go up against Mavra and her minions, she has a moment when she suggests to Harry that they could do it the legal way, bring in a mass police force to deal with the problem.

Even Harry is tempted by it.  But he knows better, and deflates Karrin's bubble as gently as he can without indulging her fantasy.  This sort of thing happened several times over some of the middle books, and usually Harry would have to remind her of the loup garou to bring her back to Earth.

In Proven Guilty, when Harry tells Karrin about the execution of the Korean kid, her first reaction is fury and probably an impulse to call for arrest warrants.  After all, the incident was, by definition, First Degree Homicide with a minor as the victim, and a number of other felonies as well.

But Harry (who was similarly angry about the whole situation himself earlier) has to remind her that the police couldn't have handled the kid, there was no mundane jail cell that would safely hold him, and he reminds her reluctantly of the loup garou again, IIRC.  Then he rather reluctantly admits, to her and himself, that that White Council really has tried, repeatedly, over the centuries to find a way to rehabilitate warlocks.  Nothing they've tried ever works once the warlock slides past the edge.

Murphy reluctantly acknowledges this, and to salve her pride says she can't ignore a dead body if it's found, and Harry promises her that it won't be.  But of course even that is just her pride talking, if the Council ordered her to hush up an investigation, body or not, she'd have to do it.  They're just too powerful to disobey.

She also starts to slip into it in White Night, but then she has an encounter with a Gruff that reminds her of the loup garou without Harry having too.  She bluffs her way through the encounter at Mac's, in a way the ends with Mac and Harry deeply impressed.  But truthfully, they really shouldn't have been.  She was bluffing a representative of a supernatural megapower, and if the gruff had called her bluff...well, that would have been unpleasant.  She shouldn't even have tried it.  It was a Cool scene.  But an unwise moment.

I suppose that's an example of my older self's perspective, actually.  Bluffing is what you do when you have absolutely no other option.  Bluffing to salve your pride is foolish, and can get you into a world of hurt if you're not lucky.  My younger self saw Cool, my older self knows the wisdom of the old saying, "When in doubt, STFU."

That same pride eventually did lead to her shattering a Sword, as you note.

Mira:

--- Quote ---He accepted it enough that he knew he couldn't stop it.  He accepted it enough that he knew he had to keep Karrin in the dark until she was ready to face up toe the cold fact of the Council's overwhelming power.

Yeah, he hated it.  He still hates it, he just knows it's necessary now.  He's still casting around for some other solution, but so far he hasn't found one.

--- End quote ---

Yup and as we grow older some of our idealism fades away, some things remain unfair, but until a better way can be found to make them fair, we have to live with it.

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