The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Attitudes and opinions about DF changing with age?

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LordDresden2:
The DF started with Storm Front, which came out in 2000.  That's right, Harry's adventures have been going on for 24 years now.  A baby born the day SF was published is old enough to have kids in grade school by now.

I got into the story a few years later, but I've been following Harry's life since 2006 or so, when I read the older books and started following the story.  That was 18 years or so ago.

Perspectives change with age.  That's true for authors (I can see traces of that in what I suspect are various retcons in JB's work), and it's true for readers, too.

How has your view of the story, the characters, the storyline, etc. changed with age?  Not just new story developments, but because you yourself are different?

A couple of changes I am conscious of in myself:  I find myself agreeing more and more with Ebenezar.  For ex, I love Thomas' character, and I sympathize with his situation and his efforts to not be a monster.  I fully sympathize with Thomas' and Harry's fraternal bond and what it means to them.

But at the same time, much more so now than when I first read Blood Rites and Dead Beat, I find Ebenezar's (and the Council's) attitude about White Vampires all too realistic.  They are what they are.  I'm not saying Harry's wrong to love Thomas, but I'm not sure Ebenezar is wrong, either.  They can both be right at the same time.  A White losing control of his or her demon may be unlikely on any given day, esp. if s/he deliberately feeds lightly regularly to keep it quiet, but such a loss of control is mathematically inevitable if a White Vampire lives long enough.

Another change:  I am much more of Martin's mind about Harry and Susan's bad judgement and reckless behavior in Death Masks.  My younger self had more sympathy for 'they're in love', older me tends to respond to my younger self with "so what?"  Martin was right, they shouldn't have been running around doing stuff together.  It was asking for trouble.

Mira:

--- Quote ---But at the same time, much more so now than when I first read Blood Rites and Dead Beat, I find Ebenezar's (and the Council's) attitude about White Vampires all too realistic.  They are what they are.  I'm not saying Harry's wrong to love Thomas, but I'm not sure Ebenezar is wrong, either.  They can both be right at the same time.  A White losing control of his or her demon may be unlikely on any given day, esp. if s/he deliberately feeds lightly regularly to keep it quiet, but such a loss of control is mathematically inevitable if a White Vampire lives long enough.

Another change:  I am much more of Martin's mind about Harry and Susan's bad judgement and reckless behavior in Death Masks.  My younger self had more sympathy for 'they're in love', older me tends to respond to my younger self with "so what?"  Martin was right, they shouldn't have been running around doing stuff together.  It was asking for trouble.

--- End quote ---

Well, I was middle age when I started reading the series, though, [knock on wood] I am in good health and condition, I would be considered elderly now.  Or I am elderly, the attitude I have is things are a lot more complicated then they appear.  In other words there are more grey areas than black and white here, and yeah usually enough blame to go around on everyone.

Harry and Susan, while Martin wasn't wrong about Harry and Susan's bad judgement, he also was the guy that exploited it.  While yeah, Harry and Susan did fall in love, poor judgement entered into it, Susan's desire to exploit Harry's connections and knowledge to further her own career led to her down fall, because she ignored both Harry's warnings and what she witnessed with her own eyes.  Harry's own problems with women and loneliness led to falling harder for Susan than he might have, which led to his own willful blindness to the reality that though Susan loved him, she was also using him.. So the relationship went on to it's tragic end.

I agree, I don't think Eb is wrong about White Vampires either, however given the complication that his own grandson is one, and that his other grandson loves his half-brother, Eb needs to do a whole lot more talking and explaining to Harry.  Because on the face of it, Eb should know that Harry isn't going to stop loving Thomas just because he is told that he can't trust a White Vampire.  Harry knows that White Vampires can't be trusted, but he can't stop loving Thomas just on Eb's say so.  What is more Harry has been helped by Lara, this further complicates things.  As we saw in Battle Ground Lara was huge in the battle against the Titian and the Fomor.   In that sense I think Eb is repeating the same mistake he made with Harry's mother, Margaret.  He has to do a lot better than say, "because I said so," to Harry.  He also has to do a hell of a lot more listening because it's easy to fall into the "I am older and wiser" trap and totally miss the boat.

vincentric:
A recurring cause of problems in the Dresden Files is that " Wizards keep too many secrets."

It's telling that Thomas, the White Court vampire, has been more open and honest with Harry than Ebeneezer has.

Thomas sought out Harry and cautiously sounded him out, established a friendly relationship and revealed their family relationship while also cautioning Harry against the rest of the White Court. Since then, Thomas has been at Harry's side through evil magicians, shapeshifter abduction and vampire wars, getting the worst of it and coming back for more.

Ebeneezer, in the course of training Harry in wizard ethics, never trusted Harry with the fact that he was his maternal grandfather which kept Harry ignorant of all related matters, doesn't trust Harry's judgement my minimalizing the issue when Harry tries to tell him about Chichen Itza, can't have a rational conversation about the White Court and refuses to teach Harry anything about what a Starborn unless they're about to be attacked by a pack of Outsiders.

So, even though I agree that White Court vampires can't be trusted, Harry has almost as much evidence against trusting wizards.

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: Mira on October 07, 2024, 12:38:47 PM ---

Harry and Susan, while Martin wasn't wrong about Harry and Susan's bad judgement, he also was the guy that exploited it. 
--- End quote ---

Yeah, but that came later.  At the time we first meet them, Martin warns Susan that there's no good going to come of her spending time with Harry.  He was right.  (Or at least, right from the POV of Harry at that time.  Maggie is something good that came of it...but at fearful cost.)

Older me doesn't hold the flawed relationship of Harry and Susan against them, before the Party.  Yeah, they were in love, sincerely so, but also using each other to some extent...but no human relationships are totally pure and perfect.  Two flawed people, there were red flags about their relationship but not any worse than many others.

But after the Party, after Susan was Red-infected...everything was different then.  The cold, hard fact was that their relationship needed to end at that point.  It wasn't fair, it wasn't right, it wasn't just, it wasn't their consensual desire...but older me tells younger me that none of that is relevant.  It was what it was. 

Susan didn't need to be involved in any romantic/sexual liaisons after that, with anyone, for any reason.  Harry needed to face up to the cold reality that their relationship had been made impossible, and come to terms with it.  What either one wanted was irrelevant. Younger me rebelled against that sort of coldness, older me tends to take it as given.  Life's not fair.  That's something age does teach.


--- Quote ---
I agree, I don't think Eb is wrong about White Vampires either, however given the complication that his own grandson is one, and that his other grandson loves his half-brother, Eb needs to do a whole lot more talking and explaining to Harry.  Because on the face of it, Eb should know that Harry isn't going to stop loving Thomas just because he is told that he can't trust a White Vampire.  Harry knows that White Vampires can't be trusted, but he can't stop loving Thomas just on Eb's say so.  What is more Harry has been helped by Lara, this further complicates things.  As we saw in Battle Ground Lara was huge in the battle against the Titian and the Fomor.   In that sense I think Eb is repeating the same mistake he made with Harry's mother, Margaret.  He has to do a lot better than say, "because I said so," to Harry.  He also has to do a hell of a lot more listening because it's easy to fall into the "I am older and wiser" trap and totally miss the boat.

--- End quote ---

I partly agree, but at the same time, older me also disagrees.  Younger me, back in 2006, would have been 100% 'yeah, openness and straight communication'.  Older me sees it as more complicated than that.  Wizards keep secrets in part by their nature, it's the currency of their power.  Harry hates it...but he's come to realize the necessity of it sometimes, too, like he's come to recognize that the Council's attitude about warlocks is not without foundation.

For ex, consider Harry's decision to keep a lot of stuff about the supernatural world in Chicago from Karrin until Summer Knight.  She resented it, but in retrospect, it's pretty clear he was justified.  Even my younger self recognized that, my older one understands it even better.

Suppose Harry had told Karrin the full truth before the loup garou rampage.  Suppose he informed her that:

There are enforcers for a secret society who consider themselves entitled to behead children for breaking rules they don't know exist, and they do it right here in Chicago...and you can't interfere.  You have to look the other way.

There are whole families of super-powered sex predators and rapists (the White Court) who prey on innocents, sometimes to the point of death, rape their minds and bodies, right here in Chicago, including teens (at least)...and you must not try to interfere.

And so on.  Do you think the Karrin of that time could have accepted the necessity of looking the other way?  But if she doesn't, a lot of good cops die for no reason, other people's lives get shattered, probably some cops end up imprisoned (which can be a fate worse than death) by the supernaturals manipulating the system, her family might pay a steep price too?  Could she accept the reality of that, before the loup garou rubbed her nose in reality?

Younger me understood that about Karrin, older me can see a lot of reasons why Wizards would be reluctant to let information get out of hand.  I don't always agree with them, but older me understands it.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Yeah, but that came later.  At the time we first meet them, Martin warns Susan that there's no good going to come of her spending time with Harry.  He was right.  (Or at least, right from the POV of Harry at that time.  Maggie is something good that came of it...but at fearful cost.)

--- End quote ---

I am not sure what you mean here, because when we first meet Martin, Susan was already infected and partly turned.  If I remember correctly, Martin knew about them, still brought her to town with him, it was a set up.. In other words knowing the chemistry, Martin made both of them part of his long term plans.  After Harry's rescue from Nic when Shiro took his place, Martin knew full well that Harry was weakened, wounded, thus vulnerable, he also knew what the smell of blood would drive Susan to.. Yet he had her take Harry to his place.  So while Martin may have warned Susan, throwing them together when biological forces were so strong coupled with emotional was asking for trouble.  Yeah, some common sense prevailed, i.e. Harry tied Susan up so she wouldn't outright kill him during their sex, but that doesn't mean he was in control, he was driven by his needs and the overpowering effect of the vamp venom.   Susan for her part was not really in control either because of the vamp venom.

--- Quote ---Older me doesn't hold the flawed relationship of Harry and Susan against them, before the Party.  Yeah, they were in love, sincerely so, but also using each other to some extent...but no human relationships are totally pure and perfect.  Two flawed people, there were red flags about their relationship but not any worse than many others.

--- End quote ---
Oh I totally disagree here, this wasn't merely a relationship between to two flawed people.  One was a wizard with physical contacts, dangerous contacts with the supernatural world, you don't mess with that lightly. Susan thought she could and further her career, she got in way over her head.. The red flags were a lot worse and were waving on their first date for crap sake, and it was death for her in the end, so yeah, a lot worse than many others.

--- Quote ---But after the Party, after Susan was Red-infected...everything was different then.  The cold, hard fact was that their relationship needed to end at that point.  It wasn't fair, it wasn't right, it wasn't just, it wasn't their consensual desire...but older me tells younger me that none of that is relevant.  It was what it was.

--- End quote ---

It did end, remember Susan went to South America shortly after she was infected.  However that didn't end how Harry felt about her, he wanted to marry her.  At that point in time Harry still thought he was all alone, he didn't know who Thomas was and he still believed that Elaine was dead.  If you will remember he became obsessed with trying to find a cure for Susan, was in a deep clinical depression over guilt and her leaving at the beginning of Summer Knight.  I don't know if you have ever been there in your life, I have.  While yes, common sense says the relationship was ended and it was for the good of all, emotions play a stronger role, Harry is a sensitive guy and couldn't deal with it.  Easy to say the relationship had ended, but in practice, in Harry's heart it hadn't.  I say that as an older woman who did find that life went on, found my life partner after, but I understand all too well what Harry was dealing with.

--- Quote ---Susan didn't need to be involved in any romantic/sexual liaisons after that, with anyone, for any reason.  Harry needed to face up to the cold reality that their relationship had been made impossible, and come to terms with it.  What either one wanted was irrelevant. Younger me rebelled against that sort of coldness, older me tends to take it as given.  Life's not fair.  That's something age does teach.

--- End quote ---

I agree, but who brought her back to town to seek out and work with Harry?  Martin..  And again, easy to talk about cold reality,
but also reality that Harry hadn't gotten over her, it isn't in his emotional make up to get over something like that easily.  He never fully got over Elaine, I don't doubt that his mourning for Murphy will become a major stumbling block between him and Lara.  Harry is a lot more mature than he was, he isn't alone now, but to turn off a physical/emotional relationship with a woman like a facet is not in his personality/emotional make up.

--- Quote ---I partly agree, but at the same time, older me also disagrees.  Younger me, back in 2006, would have been 100% 'yeah, openness and straight communication'.  Older me sees it as more complicated than that.  Wizards keep secrets in part by their nature, it's the currency of their power.  Harry hates it...but he's come to realize the necessity of it sometimes, too, like he's come to recognize that the Council's attitude about warlocks is not without foundation.

--- End quote ---

Problem with that, Harry is Eb's grandson as well as a wizard.. Very complicated indeed..

--- Quote ---For ex, consider Harry's decision to keep a lot of stuff about the supernatural world in Chicago from Karrin until Summer Knight.  She resented it, but in retrospect, it's pretty clear he was justified.  Even my younger self recognized that, my older one understands it even better.

--- End quote ---

Not the same, as Eb and Harry..  Grapes to apples, both fruit but not alike.


--- Quote ---Suppose Harry had told Karrin the full truth before the loup garou rampage.  Suppose he informed her that:
--- End quote ---

I think he tried as much as he could, but remember at that point she had already jumped to conclusions and wasn't receptive.  They both learned some painful lessons from that.

--- Quote ---There are enforcers for a secret society who consider themselves entitled to behead children for breaking rules they don't know exist, and they do it right here in Chicago...and you can't interfere.  You have to look the other way.

There are whole families of super-powered sex predators and rapists (the White Court) who prey on innocents, sometimes to the point of death, rape their minds and bodies, right here in Chicago, including teens (at least)...and you must not try to interfere.

And so on.  Do you think the Karrin of that time could have accepted the necessity of looking the other way?  But if she doesn't, a lot of good cops die for no reason, other people's lives get shattered, probably some cops end up imprisoned (which can be a fate worse than death) by the supernaturals manipulating the system, her family might pay a steep price too?  Could she accept the reality of that, before the loup garou rubbed her nose in reality?

--- End quote ---

Actually Harry if you will remember didn't feel that Karrin should look the other way.. He was horrified about the kangaroo courts that the Council held or often didn't bother with before they chopped off the heads of kids they felt were going warlock.  No, Murphy wouldn't accept the reality of that, but the truth is, neither did Harry.. Actually you can argue that Murphy did accept it, she had no problem acting as judge, jury, and executioner for Nic in Skin Game, though she claimed she was no longer a Holy Knight she used a Holy Sword in an illegal manner.  While doing that she also violated every oath she ever took as a police officer and got a Holy Sword shattered.

--- Quote ---Younger me understood that about Karrin, older me can see a lot of reasons why Wizards would be reluctant to let information get out of hand.  I don't always agree with them, but older me understands it.
--- End quote ---

Yes, life tells us that, as much as we'd like, being totally open isn't always possible and sometimes for the good of all, secrets must be kept..

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