The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
Mira:
--- Quote ---But for the most part, Karrin wasn't doing that. What I mean is that she was not really adapting all that well to her situation post Changes. She wasn't a cop anymore, but she still had cop instincts, deep down I think she thought of herself as a cop. But she was, de facto, now part of John's organization, though she was in denial about that. Butters was actually more self-honest on that point than Karrin was.
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She also became a hypocrite post Changes, mostly manifested by what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't return the custodianship of the Swords back to Harry, claiming she had better judgement where the Swords were concerned, he couldn't be trusted etc. Then turned around and did everything a Sword custodian shouldn't do, breaking the rules that govern the use of a Holy Sword, and got a Holy Sword broken. As Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, she appointed herself,custodian, she wasn't appointed. Though it did turn out well in the end, there was no remorse on her part about being so arrogant that she thought she knew better than God.
--- Quote ---But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.
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Not really, because supposedly and many people here have argued that the main attraction of Murphy was the fact that she was very vanilla human, a believable character. That's what she was basically until she got fired from the police force. She was a martial arts champ, fine with in the limits of what is humanly possible for her size etc., believable. That's what people loved about her, but as time went on her character became more wonder womanish with supposedly the wisdom of Solomon, there are other characters that fit that role better than she did.
--- Quote ---For the most part, JB has deliberately refrained from doing the various tropes of 'narrative gloss of the nerdosphere'. Karrin's unrealistic abilities at akido were already a partial, limited exception, and it was becoming glaring. Ignoring the effects of age, or the reality of the growing danger level around Harry, would make it worse. Do very much of that, and the DV starts to resemble stuff like Harry Potter or the like.
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Exactly
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 13, 2024, 11:51:57 AM ---She also became a hypocrite post Changes, mostly manifested by what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't return the custodianship of the Swords back to Harry, claiming she had better judgement where the Swords were concerned, he couldn't be trusted etc. Then turned around and did everything a Sword custodian shouldn't do, breaking the rules that govern the use of a Holy Sword, and got a Holy Sword broken. As Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, she appointed herself,custodian, she wasn't appointed.
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To be fair, that was true to her past characterization, though it had been a while since we had seen that side of her personality. We saw the same character traits come out after she lost her police position that she displayed in Storm Front and Fool Moon. Granted that was a long time ago, but the same traits are visible.
Karrin has many virtues, but she also has a strong desire for control. Not to dominate others so much (though that can be a side effect when it goes badly) but rather control over her own situation, over events she's part of. When focused properly it made her a better cop, when it was focused badly it caused her to display bad judgement. Her reaction to out of control tends to be anger and an attempt to force control. She also hates to admit, even (or esp.) to herself, that she's afraid. It's a linked trait.
When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast. Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her. Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear. She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.
But Karrin was never good at admitting fear to others or herself, and she reacted to that fear by trying to control it, to apply her comfort belief (the law) to it, to treat it like a mundane criminal conspiracy or the like. This was dangerous self-deception, and it eventually cost Ron Carmichael his life.
The events of Fool Moon sobered Karrin up a lot, and also forcibly humbled her. After that, she usually recognized that the supernatural was too powerful for her, she simply was not going to have full control. Occasionally she started to fall into that former pattern, but Harry could usually bring her to her senses by reminding her of the loup garou. We saw variations on that happen (off the top of my head) in Death Masks, Blood Rites, Proven Guilty, and Small Favor. In each case she would start to slip back into old habits of thought, and either Harry would remind of the loup garou or some other supernatural event would remind her of the power imbalance, and she would sober up.
But when Harry apparently died and she was no longer a cop and no longer had Harry there, her control issues flared up again and that old anger and arrogance (which is disguised fear) reappeared.
--- Quote ---
Not really, because supposedly and many people here have argued that the main attraction of Murphy was the fact that she was very vanilla human, a believable character. That's what she was basically until she got fired from the police force. She was a martial arts champ, fine with in the limits of what is humanly possible for her size etc., believable. That's what people loved about her, but as time went on her character became more wonder womanish with supposedly the wisdom of Solomon, there are other characters that fit that role better than she did.
Exactly
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Another issue with bringing Karrin back is the Harry/Karrin romantic/sexual relationship.
Back in the early books, a Harry/Karrin pairing seemed totally natural to me. I would find myself thinking that she made way more sense for Harry than Susan did. Their worlds and lives intersected comfortably. That was also before we knew about Harry's lifespan.
To my mind, though, even by Proven Guilty or White Night, the idea of Harry/Karrin seemed less and less plausible and natural. Harry's life was changing, it was kind of like they'd missed their 'launch window'. Also, Karrin's reasons for rejecting a relationship with Harry, way back when, were by no means trivial or bad. Harry's lifespan makes anything other than a temporary fling with a normal woman a highly doubtful prospect. Once we knew about his lifespan, suddenly Elaine or Molly both seemed like more natural prospects than Karrin. Elaine and Molly also seemed more 'natural' fits with the world Harry was moving in and the changes he was undergoing. By the time of Turn Coat, I had started sort of hearing that Taylor Swift song in my head when Molly was with Harry and he would be thinking about Karrin: You Belong With Me. When Harry was with Elaine, that too seemed more 'natural' after a while.
If Karrin were to come back as a baseline mortal...all the same relationship issues suddenly reappear, too. If she comes back as something other than a baseline mortal, one of her main character distinctions has vanished. I'm not sure this problem has a solution.
Mira:
--- Quote ---To be fair, that was true to her past characterization, though it had been a while since we had seen that side of her personality. We saw the same character traits come out after she lost her police position that she displayed in Storm Front and Fool Moon. Granted that was a long time ago, but the same traits are visible.
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Agreed, I also think Harry is attracted to that kind of controlling personality because he was an orphan.
--- Quote ---When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast. Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her. Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear. She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.
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Susan's reaction was weird, on one hand she saw it as career enhancing, but on the other I don't think she actually believed the danger in spite of what she witnessed and experienced. In the end that's what was her downfall, her refusal to believe Harry when he told her why he wasn't going to Bianca's party. In some respects not unlike Murphy, but different, a smart woman so confident in her own judgement that she ignored what Harry was trying to tell her. Murphy so confident in her law background thought she was qualified to pass judgement on Nic, when it wasn't her place to judge.
--- Quote ---Another issue with bringing Karrin back is the Harry/Karrin romantic/sexual relationship.
Back in the early books, a Harry/Karrin pairing seemed totally natural to me. I would find myself thinking that she made way more sense for Harry than Susan did. Their worlds and lives intersected comfortably. That was also before we knew about Harry's lifespan.
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I never was a fan of a Harry/Karrin romantic relationship simply because I preferred it when they had a professional relationship. Friendship was fine, but romance mucked it up in my opinion. I didn't care for his relationship with Susan either because though I won't say that she didn't love him, her ambition complicated their relationship.
--- Quote ---To my mind, though, even by Proven Guilty or White Night, the idea of Harry/Karrin seemed less and less plausible and natural. Harry's life was changing, it was kind of like they'd missed their 'launch window'. Also, Karrin's reasons for rejecting a relationship with Harry, way back when, were by no means trivial or bad]
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Yes, and those reasons didn't go away with time, they were just as valid in Peace Talks as they were back in Proven Guilty. Actually I lost a lot of respect for the character when the romance took over. Why? Because it was refreshing for a man and a woman to have a normal professional/friendship working relationship, I never saw any real sexual tension between them.
--- Quote ---If Karrin were to come back as a baseline mortal...all the same relationship issues suddenly reappear, too. If she comes back as something other than a baseline mortal, one of her main character distinctions has vanished. I'm not sure this problem has a solution.
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In short, it doesn't! Murphy was a vanilla mortal, as such, when she was murdered, she should stay D-E-A-D.. That sounds blunt, but in my opinion the rest of the series is going to be complicated enough without the distraction of a returning Murphy from Valhalla.. To quote Gard, they don't return until living memory of them is gone, and there is a reason for that. Murphy died, we can mourn her, but the series needs to move on.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2024, 02:37:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on August 14, 2024, 05:39:53 AM ---When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast. Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her. Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear. She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.
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Susan's reaction was weird, on one hand she saw it as career enhancing, but on the other I don't think she actually believed the danger in spite of what she witnessed and experienced.
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I agree with that 100%. She believed with the intellectual part of her mind, but the gut-level fear that would be a natural reaction was absent. On some deep level she wasn't taking it seriously. She was entranced by the vision of writing the Story, and even when Harry pointed out that she would never be permitted to publish it anyway, I don't think she really heard him.
Years ago, I made a comparison with Susan and her reactions: imagine if, instead of an invite to the Vampire Ball, Susan had been given an opportunity of a lifetime for a reporter. Imagine she had a chance to interview President Bush and Osama bin Laden at the same time, any questions allowed and answered. The sort of thing a reporter can only fantasize about.
But there's a condition: to get to the interview she has to swim naked through a tank of chummed reef sharks. Would she accept? Of course not, it would be obvious suicide. She would recognize the sharks as a lethal threat. But she didn't, deep down, think of the vampires that way, because 'there's no such thing as vampires'. They weren't real to her.
The monsters were quite real for Karrin from the beginning, as is shown by her natural, healthy reaction: fear. Karrin was visibly terrified of the supernatural, but had trouble admitting it to herself.
--- Quote ---I never was a fan of a Harry/Karrin romantic relationship simply because I preferred it when they had a professional relationship. Friendship was fine, but romance mucked it up in my opinion. I didn't care for his relationship with Susan either because though I won't say that she didn't love him, her ambition complicated their relationship.
Yes, and those reasons didn't go away with time, they were just as valid in Peace Talks as they were back in Proven Guilty. Actually I lost a lot of respect for the character when the romance took over. Why? Because it was refreshing for a man and a woman to have a normal professional/friendship working relationship, I never saw any real sexual tension between them.
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Oh, I did. There was definitely sexual and romantic tension. It's just that it didn't necessarily make sense for them to act on it.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Dina on August 13, 2024, 11:07:04 AM ---
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on August 13, 2024, 03:03:41 AM ---
--- Quote from: g33k on August 12, 2024, 10:23:05 PM ---
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I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?
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Define marry.
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I meant the actual ritual and ceremony. The part of the sex is a secondary mystery but it is also relevant for the first part because we know that traditionally marriages were not valid until they were consummated.
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The reason I asked is that 'marriage' can have specialized meanings in the sort of Old World political alliance scenarios such as Mab is invoking. Will Harry marry Lara? Maybe, but I don't know that it'll end up being what we usually think of as marriage.
There are obvious issues. For ex, realistically, Lara can't be faithful. She has to feed, at least occasionally. Harry would not be wise to indulge in much marital sex with Lara, for the same reason he would not be wise to relax with a hit of heroin. But I envision 'political' arrangements that might be called a marriage, too.
(Also, I'm pretty sure Harry would be very reluctant to have kids with Lara! And if they did, making sure those kids escaped the White Court status would be a maximum priority for Harry. Which doesn't mean JB might not do it, of course.)
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