The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Does Thomas get a free pass?
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: g33k on March 24, 2024, 01:35:27 AM ---I'd think that:
* if Harry&co could prove that Nemesis was actually the bad actor
* if the Svartalves know of Nemesisthen Thomas could escape the most-severe Svartalven penalties.
But I'm not at all confident that (in Jim's Dresdenverse) this is the case.
--- End quote ---
through might or right, Thomas can't come back without doing so on some level tho.
Skipping out of the grave sword in hand just to be throttled by a svartalf would definitely subvert expectations...
Mira:
--- Quote from: g33k on March 24, 2024, 01:19:25 AM ---This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.
The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc). A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.
--- End quote ---
I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it. That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father. Inari still most likely will fail at true love, Jim left that an open question as far as her future was concerned, but it would still be on her own terms. I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on March 25, 2024, 02:17:00 AM ---I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.
--- End quote ---
There is a more natural process, yes; I think most Whampires avoid that.
The DF Wiki says so, too:
--- Quote ---The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.
--- End quote ---
(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)
--- Quote from: Mira on March 25, 2024, 02:17:00 AM --- ... That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father ...
--- End quote ---
They did want that; but most whampires want to maintain their familial power. For all their sexual prowess, whamp-reproduction is a rarity. Even a small proportion of their children choosing not to become a serial sexual predator would spell doom for any family pursuing such "weakness."
--- Quote from: Mira on March 25, 2024, 02:17:00 AM --- ... I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.
--- End quote ---
Again, I agree. It's just that Raith père was following the mainstream tradition of House Raith, while Thomas & Lara wanted something better for Inari.
But again: we are wandering afield from the OP topic (Thomas' actions against the Svartalves, and a "free pass" (or not) for that); @OutsideIn has asked us to stay on-topic. I don't mind further whamp-centric discussion, but let's spin it off to a new Thread if we do.
Mira:
I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....
--- Quote ---The DF Wiki says so, too:
Quote
The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.
(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)
--- End quote ---
I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165
--- Quote --- page 164, Thomas leaned up against the wall beside my mother's portrait. He pushed his hair back from his face with one hand. "She hasn't been taken by her Hunger yet," he said. "Once she starts feeding it there's no going back. She'll be like us for the rest of us. My father is pushing her toward that point. I want to stop him."
"Why?"
"Because if. . .if she's in love, that first time, it could kill her Hunger. She'd be free. I think she is mature enough to be capable of that love now. There's a young man she's all twitterpated about."
--- End quote ---
That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand. The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked. Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
--- Quote ---Thomas pressed his lips together for a moment and then said. "If the kid loves her in return, then she could have a life. She could be free of the kinds of things that---" His voice broke. He had to cough before he continued."Things like what happened to Justine. Like what my father has done to my other sisters."
"What do you mean, done to them?"
"He establishes that he is their superior, He overpowers them. Pits his Hunger against theirs."
My stomach twisted. "You mean he feeds on his own. . ." I couldn't finish the sentence.
--- End quote ---
So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time. 3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest. No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on March 26, 2024, 02:28:45 PM --- I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....
I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand. The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked. Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time. 3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest. No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.
--- End quote ---
Not entirely, maybe. But I'm pretty sure keeping the kids ignorant of their own nature until it's too late is standard procedure, at least in the modern-day Court. Otherwise, they'd risk losing a lot of young vampires, or having things leak that they want kept in-Court.
Even if you can't plan on Love as a cure, there might be other ways to remove the demon before it fuses with their souls in the first feeding. If the White Court is going to endure, they can't risk that.
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