The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: forumghost on February 14, 2024, 06:31:30 AM ---It's also worth noting that Carlos... actually kinda has a point?
Like, Harry is acting sus as fuck in PT/BG.
Carlos: "Yo Man, we're kinda worried that you've be enthralled by the Totally not White Queen™. Can you talk to us about what's going on"
Harry: *Grounds staff and begins Channeling Magic* "FUCK YOU, I'M NOT SUS, YOU'RE SUS. FUCK OFF OR FIGHT ME".
Like, actually what the fuck dude. You treat your frenemies/enemies with less venom then you do you supposed friends/allies, and then go all 'boo hoo woe is me, why don't they believe me' when they don't trust you.
Trust is a two way street Harry, you learned this in like, book 3 with Murphy, remember?
--- End quote ---
Actually, he learned the wrong lesson with Murphy, or maybe he learned both at once. Harry was almost certainly right to keep Murphy in the dark as much as he did, at that time. It was only after the loup garou rampage rubbed her nose in reality that it was probably safe to bring her fully into the loop. Even after that, she occasionally starts to let her craving to use the Law as a comfort belief cause her to do something that would make a diasaster, and Harry has to remind her of the loup garou and Carmichael to sober her up. Or remember the incident with the gruff at Mac's.
The Council has excellent reason to distrust Harry, based on his own past actions and inactions. Harry, likewise, has good reason to distrust the Council. The fault lies on both sides. As Carlos pointed out, Harry would have been very wise to put in more regular appearances at Edinburgh, to maintain a good PR image and good relations with some of the other Wizards. But Harry has reason to dislike associating with them, too.
The Council are afraid, in effect, that they're seeing Kemmler II emerging. We don't know the history of Kemmler in detail, for all we know he might have started out as an apparently 'good guy' in the early stages.
But remember what Bob told Harry about Kemmler, back in Dead Beat:
"...he was a necromancer...he had truck with demons, he was buddies with most of the vampire courts...and some of the uglier fairies, too. Plus he had his own little cadre of baby Kemmlers to help him..."
Sound familiar? From the POV of the more skeptical Council members, the above sounds more than a little like Harry. Not every detail, but Harry has apparently come back from the dead, he reanimated Sue, he's way too close for comfort with the White Court, he's known to have trafficked with demons, he's hooked up with a whole mess of entities who are, at best, not friendly to humanity, he's the Winter Knight, he's Margaret McCoy's son, he's managed to make himself the Warden of Demonreach (the ultimate unexploded bomb!), his former apprentice (a warlock herself!) is now Winter Lady, he's accumulating a number of powerful artifacts, he's gathering minions (the paranet would look an awful lot like a mechanism to do that from one POV) plus outfits like the Chicago protectors, he's allies (sort of) with Marcone, ...and he's copping an attitude.
What do we expect the Council to assume? I suspect Carlos himself is probably torn. I don't think, based on what he said in Battleground, that he thinks Harry is evil...but I do think he's afraid Harry might be headed that way in spite of himself, losing his footing on the slippery slope, so to speak.
The Council's attitude is completely reasonable, from their POV.
vincentric:
The problem is the White Council has selective memory where Harry is concerned.
No one can deny that many of Harry's exploits look shady from an outside view. But they don't give him credit for the bright ones or the times that he does the right thing when it might have been wiser to step aside.
Yes, he started the war with the Red Court (Though it was more that he gave them a pretext to put their plans in motion.), but he did it to save innocents from slavery and death. He resolved the war between Winter and Summer. He stood with the KotC as the Denarians tried to start anew Black Death. He stopped Kimmler's heirs. He again stood with the KotC to prevent the corruption of the Archive. He uncovered the traitor within the Council. He destroyed the Red Court. He dealt the deciding blow to Ethniu. These are the things that they know about but give no credit for. Saving the world in Cold Days and being literally on the side of the angels (Multiple casual interactions with Archangel Uriel come to mind.) would be more to his good but they don't know about those beyond what Harry's reported.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: vincentric on July 01, 2024, 12:05:35 AM ---The problem is the White Council has selective memory where Harry is concerned.
No one can deny that many of Harry's exploits look shady from an outside view. But they don't give him credit for the bright ones or the times that he does the right thing when it might have been wiser to step aside.
Yes, he started the war with the Red Court (Though it was more that he gave them a pretext to put their plans in motion.), but he did it to save innocents from slavery and death. He resolved the war between Winter and Summer. He stood with the KotC as the Denarians tried to start anew Black Death. He stopped Kimmler's heirs. He again stood with the KotC to prevent the corruption of the Archive. He uncovered the traitor within the Council. He destroyed the Red Court. He dealt the deciding blow to Ethniu. These are the things that they know about but give no credit for. Saving the world in Cold Days and being literally on the side of the angels (Multiple casual interactions with Archangel Uriel come to mind.) would be more to his good but they don't know about those beyond what Harry's reported.
--- End quote ---
It depends on what you mean by credit. From the Council's POV, the issue is not whether he did most of those things, but rather the question: 'Why did he do it?'
That is, what were his motives, and what are the effects on him, and where is he going? Remember, a warlock can do good things and become a dangerous monster as a side effect. It almost happened to Molly, and I'm sure other warlocks got trapped trying to do what they thought was right. By many accounts, the start of Margaret's darkness was misguided idealism.
The Council is afraid they're seeing Kemmler II in embryo. That could be true even if all of Harry's motives are good. Yeah, he wiped out the Red Court. But that has both good and bad effects. He struck the decisive blow against Ethniu...but that could be in the service of good or bad intentions. Even if his intentions are good, the results could end up being catastrophically bad, and the Council knows that.
They aren't asking where he's been or what he's done or why, they're asking "Where is this going?" Which is a different question.
Mira:
--- Quote ---The Council is afraid they're seeing Kemmler II in embryo. That could be true even if all of Harry's motives are good. Yeah, he wiped out the Red Court. But that has both good and bad effects. He struck the decisive blow against Ethniu...but that could be in the service of good or bad intentions. Even if his intentions are good, the results could end up being catastrophically bad, and the Council knows that.
--- End quote ---
Or there are a lot of power politics going on, let's not forget that at least three on the Sr Council do not think that Harry is a baby Kemmler.. However there is at least one who feels threatened by Harry's growing power. And yes, in many ways Harry has made his own bed and given that one or two of influence to twist and use all that he has done against him.. As I said, the hurt that Carlos received when he attempted to have sex with Molly went deeper than the mere physical and candidate number one for manipulation against Harry.
vincentric:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 01, 2024, 12:43:42 AM ---It depends on what you mean by credit. From the Council's POV, the issue is not whether he did most of those things, but rather the question: 'Why did he do it?'
That is, what were his motives, and what are the effects on him, and where is he going? Remember, a warlock can do good things and become a dangerous monster as a side effect. It almost happened to Molly, and I'm sure other warlocks got trapped trying to do what they thought was right. By many accounts, the start of Margaret's darkness was misguided idealism.
The Council is afraid they're seeing Kemmler II in embryo. That could be true even if all of Harry's motives are good. Yeah, he wiped out the Red Court. But that has both good and bad effects. He struck the decisive blow against Ethniu...but that could be in the service of good or bad intentions. Even if his intentions are good, the results could end up being catastrophically bad, and the Council knows that.
They aren't asking where he's been or what he's done or why, they're asking "Where is this going?" Which is a different question.
--- End quote ---
If you saw one of the most promising talents of the past century who is also a Starborn, walking close to the darkness, would you try a calm and reasoned intercession or would you bully, threaten and ostracize him even though he has not done any dark acts?
The Council became antagonistic to Harry when he used a political move to save Molly. Until he got on Langtry's bad side there, Harry was a rising star. He had emerged from the Doom, been promoted to the Wardens and then to the Warden in charge of North America. He wasn't even required to report to any of the three Senior Council members living there.
As Mira said, this is all about politics. Langtry feels threatened by Harry and doesn't like the direction that he thinks Harry would lead or influence the Council toward. He now has the best of both worlds as he sees it. Harry is a Council outcast, and he can still use Harry by exploiting his incapability to refuse to do the right thing.
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