The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Q&A Fantasyfestival 2023 in Esbjerg/Denmark
magnuskn:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 25, 2023, 12:35:49 PM --- Thank you, my point.. ;) Also give thought as to why you love her so much and if you'd still love her after all these twists and turns to bring her back? That's my problem with the character, I liked her when she was a good,strong,smart cop who worked with Harry, kept him on his toes and was a good friend as well as a critic. I think her previous reasons stated to him for not wanting their friendship to be more in I think was Proven Guilty are still valid. I began to have problems with her once she was fired and Jim didn't know quite what to do with her. I still don't think he does, while the idea of turning her into Mab or a Valkyrie may be appealing to those who want her back.. My response is, really? She won't be Murphy anymore because her perspective won't be what it once was. It changes everything, not unlike Ivy/Archive, when Ivy was a little girl her relationship with both Harry and Kincaid was very different from what it is now as young adult, Ivy, the Archive.. I loved the old relationships as well, but they had to change to be believable. Why? Because the perspective of a more mature Ivy changed, she sees both Harry and Kincaid differently.
--- End quote ---
People change, but at the core they mostly stay the same. I still love Harry, despite him having to deal with rage issues due to the Winter Mantle (which got pretty ooky in Cold Days, before he got a handle on it in the books after that). I still love his character, despite him giving up a lot of his ideals for a more pragmatic approach over the last few books.
I can deal with Murphy changing as well, as long as she is, at her core, still Murphy. Having some powers (which she had before, when wielding the swords, btw) doesn't change that and adding some conflict by having conflicting loyalties doesn't do so, either.
So, yeah, I want her back, with new problems to solve.
Mira:
--- Quote ---People change, but at the core they mostly stay the same. I still love Harry, despite him having to deal with rage issues due to the Winter Mantle (which got pretty ooky in Cold Days, before he got a handle on it in the books after that). I still love his character, despite him giving up a lot of his ideals for a more pragmatic approach over the last few books.
--- End quote ---
However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
--- Quote ---I can deal with Murphy changing as well, as long as she is, at her core, still Murphy. Having some powers (which she had before, when wielding the swords, btw) doesn't change that and adding some conflict by having conflicting loyalties doesn't do so, either.
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There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them, strict rules apply, as Murphy sadly found out. However the whole time she wielded the Sword, she was merely a vanilla human, as Michael,Sanya, Butters, and Shiro are. Susan was the exception since she was half vamp, however the Sword didn't effect that one way or the other. So Murphy was a mere vanilla human until the day she was murdered, it only seemed like she had power because she was being turned into Wonder Woman. There are rules for Odin's soldiers and for Valkyrie as well that cannot be broken. If she gets power and comes back she will have to play by a new set of rules, from a new perspective, she won't be the same person.
--- Quote ---So, yeah, I want her back, with new problems to solve.
--- End quote ---
Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved. True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 25, 2023, 06:29:28 PM --- ... There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them...
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The "power" the KotS's have isn't exactly personal power, no. It's the "power" to not be overwhelmed or overmatched by any degree of supernatural power, no matter how huge that power is.
But it's not exactly not personal power, either.
magnuskn:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 25, 2023, 06:29:28 PM --- However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them, strict rules apply, as Murphy sadly found out. However the whole time she wielded the Sword, she was merely a vanilla human, as Michael,Sanya, Butters, and Shiro are. Susan was the exception since she was half vamp, however the Sword didn't effect that one way or the other. So Murphy was a mere vanilla human until the day she was murdered, it only seemed like she had power because she was being turned into Wonder Woman. There are rules for Odin's soldiers and for Valkyrie as well that cannot be broken. If she gets power and comes back she will have to play by a new set of rules, from a new perspective, she won't be the same person.
Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved. True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.
--- End quote ---
Okay, I don't know how to have a good discussion with someone who clearly has a different definition of what constitutes a "person". I didn't like Murphy because of her "function" as the normie of the group, I liked her because of her personality, of her way of interacting with people. If she came back with Valkyrie powers and some conflicts of loyalty, that would not change her basic personality, that would just add conflict to her relation with Harry. Her intrinsic value to me as a character is not in her position as the "one without powers" in Dresdens coterie, but in what she provides as a person. So, sorry, but I don't put much trust in your predictive powers, which you clearly are trying to exercise here. Murphy will be as much the same person after returning as Harry was after coming back from being nursed back to health by Mab.
LaraBeck:
--- Quote from: magnuskn on September 25, 2023, 10:15:04 PM ---Okay, I don't know how to have a good discussion with someone who clearly has a different definition of what constitutes a "person". I didn't like Murphy because of her "function" as the normie of the group, I liked her because of her personality, of her way of interacting with people. If she came back with Valkyrie powers and some conflicts of loyalty, that would not change her basic personality, that would just add conflict to her relation with Harry. Her intrinsic value to me as a character is not in her position as the "one without powers" in Dresdens coterie, but in what she provides as a person. So, sorry, but I don't put much trust in your predictive powers, which you clearly are trying to exercise here. Murphy will be as much the same person after returning as Harry was after coming back from being nursed back to health by Mab.
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100% agree with this take above.
--- Quote from: Mira on September 25, 2023, 06:29:28 PM ---However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
--- End quote ---
If Harry went through all of that and we can say he didn't "change", sure that's a valid thing to say. Though to be honest, people evolve and change according to circumstances they live through, I don't think it's just a matter of the physical parts (ie being a wizard or human, etc), that's such a limiting view, but ymmv.
Anyway, we can only say he's still him because we've seen him after each and every one of those "challenges" or "transformations" coming out victorious, so to speak, still himself. We have not seen Murphy after her "transformation", so how would it be possible to be so sure that she won't be herself? Because of the physical aspect? That doesn't hold up.
--- Quote from: Mira on September 25, 2023, 06:29:28 PM ---Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved. True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.
--- End quote ---
Maybe not the one you loved/liked, if you ever did, because clearly you see her differently than some of us, but this is a repeat argument from 3 years ago, with no evidence to support it. We have not seen the aftermath for Murphy yet, and nothing similar is touched on the mythos of the series yet, so, how she comes back, if she even does, "changed" or not, is still mostly a mystery until future books.
And even if she changed, I dunno why it wouldn't be something the fans of hers wouldn't want? Why assume the change would be a bad one in the first place? But even if it was, Harry has taken blow after blow, jobs and mantles on himself and he's, let's say "evolved" not necessarily in a positive way, he's extremely flawed at this point, but for most fans, it seems, it has made him more interesting. Murphy fans will know if maybe the same applies to her.
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