The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
g33k:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 17, 2023, 06:17:04 AM --- ... we do have another example of no circle summoning now that I think about it. The phages ...
--- End quote ---
The phages -- at least some of them -- were sent, not summoned.
Plus there was all sorts of weakening going on -- not just Pell's theater, but Splattercon!!! itself, all that fear; it makes the area susceptible to invasion by phages.
Last but not least: mirrors & reflective surfaces. The Fetches can use them as gateways, no Summoning nor Sending needed. That was one of the clues Harry used to pin down that they were Fetches.
But -- even when they were summoned -- we don't really know the details. Could have been a very-strong practitioner, using a mental circle. Could have been someone with a can of silly-string making a quick-but-physical circle. Could have been Maeve or Mab, Summoning them by simple right, as a Queen of Winter.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 18, 2023, 02:13:39 AM ---The phages -- at least some of them -- were sent, not summoned.
Plus there was all sorts of weakening going on -- not just Pell's theater, but Splattercon!!! itself, all that fear; it makes the area susceptible to invasion by phages.
--- End quote ---
all of this is indeed explained in PG. Though, and I could be wrong it's been a few years since a proper re-read, I think even when talking about someone sending them they still refer to 'summoner' vs beacon?
--- Quote ---Last but not least: mirrors & reflective surfaces. The Fetches can use them as gateways, no Summoning nor Sending needed. That was one of the clues Harry used to pin down that they were Fetches.
--- End quote ---
ahh true, true. I hadn't considered that in that direction.
Thank you, THIS is what I come for. Someone who makes me have to think and relook at my theories, and possibly revise them. Honestly wouldn't have the theories I have without all the greats I've met here(I miss the Neurov still 😞 ). Am still thinking the mirrors were the link, as in actual mechanism used to cross, like an item in a ritual almost, they focused the energy into one point better.(in the presumed order of operations for summoning, the mirrors just take the place of the circle anyway actually)Though, they're just part of fetch attributes too. And of course, what I've taken to calling ]b]the third reason[/b] referring to Jim's usage of the talking head moments on magic to explain things in layers, is because it's the 'mirror' the reflection of itself as one who creates fear that it uses to find her. That's what lights up as a beacon to it. And how Fearbringer in particular vectors hosts. (click to show/hide)omg I'm remembering just how much I've forgotten about the DF over the last few traumatic years 🤦♂️
--- Quote ---But -- even when they were summoned -- we don't really know the details. Could have been a very-strong practitioner, using a mental circle. Could have been someone with a can of silly-string making a quick-but-physical circle. Could have been Maeve or Mab, Summoning them by simple right, as a Queen of Winter.
--- End quote ---
neither do we know they did 🤷♂️ so that's kinda a balanced point there. Actually, I think I know why they came now I'm thinking about it. And it never really comes down to sent or called, but because they could, and perhaps that is their whole purpose.
Mab kept her free will knight in the bullpen for years, but there was no loss of his primary role or true imbalance because mechanisms were already in place, the fetches. I'd say after CD it's a good guess that the Knights primary role for Mab is to kill people she thinks are Nemesis ilk that she has no leverage to act herself on.
I'd also say between Fearbringer, his later manifestation from Molly's magical fear generation as the rag lady and a few other points that she wasn't just black magic corrupted but actually Nemfected. To the point it even confused mouse(whom I think is actually there specifically to protect Harry from such possession, and take him out if necessary 👀 ) whom I think made it retreat outside of the police station from Molly's mind.
So the fetches go fetch Nfectees and then eat the portion actually Nfected, which is why the 'final fetch' seemed so different.
* What I've discovered is in the next few months I need to get a new note pad and begin a full reread and reexamination of the DF metaverse.
g33k:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 18, 2023, 03:38:47 AM --- ... I think even when talking about someone sending them they still refer to 'summoner' vs beacon?
--- End quote ---
Yes, I think a "beacon" (as Harry used it) just meant the biggest, brightest, tastiest bit of fear the fetches can detect; but they're already in the mortal realm, or they cannot go after such a "beacon." I don't know that it was even a formal bit of wizard-jargon (like "veil" for invisibility-magic)... Harry's very-fond of just calling stuff by whatever term comes to mind, and "beacon" struck me as an instance of that..
The "summoner" is someone who actually brings them across from the Nevernever.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 18, 2023, 03:38:47 AM --- ... Am still thinking the mirrors were the link, as in actual mechanism used to cross like an item in a ritual almost, they focused the energy into one point better.(in the presumed order of operations for summoning, the mirrors just take the place of the circle anyway actually)Though, they're just part of fetch attributes too ...
--- End quote ---
Harry knows fetches come into the mortal world via mirrors; as you say, "just part of fetches attributes."
In some cases, the mirrors were the link; the bathroom in Splattercon!!! where Pell got assaulted, for one example: There was Pell, and there was Nelson, and there was not a summoner (or Pell/Nelson would have noticed). So the fetch got itself into the bathroom through the mirror (and, likely, back out again).
Later, at the screening of the movie where Rosie got injured, Harry's own magical senses could feel someone else's magical working as it went off(*). We don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that was the summoner.
So I think we have a strong case for "both" rather than an either/or situation.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 18, 2023, 03:38:47 AM --- ... neither do we know they did 🤷♂️ so that's kinda a balanced point there ...
--- End quote ---
Not a "balanced" point: I am alleging that there is no point at all to be made from our info on Fetch-summoning. None of the summons' happened "onscreen," nor did Harry find any summoning-circles. We have precisely zero info about who summoned any of the fetches, or how. All theories on Fetch-summoning are based upon implied data only, and multiple theories about it are more-or-less equally-strongly (or equally-weakly) supported.
I will advocate for my own WAG, here: that Molly was being nudged towards black magic by Lea, on Mab's orders: to leverage Harry's severe case of
[White Knight Syndrome]
X
[My Best Friend's Daughter]
X
[Everything-Is-All-My-fault Guilt]
to create a Harry/Molly relationship where Winter already has its claws in. Likely, I think, Nemfected-Maeve got involved (trying to Screw Up Mommy's Plans); I think some of the Fetch action was Maeve's, but mostly it was Mab's (the Madrigal(Darby) Whampire involvement was -- I think -- Cowl's).
(*) -- In the incident where Rosie got hurt, there were actually three magical workings:
#1 The power went out. Maybe that was mortal wizard, either intentionally hexing the power, or just mortal-wizarding the way mortal wizards do (i.e. plays-badly-with-tech); given how widespread the outage, my bet would be that it was intentional. But it could have been a non-mortal, too.
#2 The myrk. My bet is that it was a working of Winter (likely Maeve, maybe Mab), because (a) it came alongside a huge temperature-drop; & (b) a Maeve-likely myrk (& Hobs) was also a Winter Summoning in Small Favor.
#3 The summoning itself, calling "The Reaper" into the movie-screening. If this was Mab or Maeve, they could summon fetches without any "magical working" per se (when one of the Winter Queens wants a winterfae... they just arrive, no circle, no fuss, no muss).
Maybe that was 3 different workings, as many as 3 magic-workers? Maybe it was one magical heavyweight doing three workings simultaneously (or in quick succession)? I don't think we know...
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 18, 2023, 03:38:47 AM --- ... So the fetches go fetch Nfectees and then eat the portion actually Nfected, which is why the 'final fetch' seemed so different ...
--- End quote ---
I don't think the Fetches have enough magical mojo to handle that. Gatekeeper is among the best in all creation at spotting Outsiders: if Mab could station Fetches at the Gates, and get a better hit-rate than she gets from the Gatekeeper (or even just give him occasional time to pursue other Outsider incursions, in other places) she'd be doing that; but we haven't a hint of it.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 18, 2023, 04:53:29 PM ---Yes, I think a "beacon" (as Harry used it) just meant the biggest, brightest, tastiest bit of fear the fetches can detect; but they're already in the mortal realm, or they cannot go after such a "beacon."
--- End quote ---
your probably not thinking about the same scene I think, though THAT scene actually supports this. Harry sent the fetches back to the source of the summoning, that source WAS molly. They might have been sent but the sender needed a sympathetic node, a beacon, to send them through. That's not fear, that's someone who wants to cause fear.(it's like the fetches we're literally designed to hunt Fearbringer manifest) that's why it sent the to Molly tho. She mirrored the sender and that was what gave them a beacon, or more correctly I think gave the sender something to send power through to the mortal world.
--- Quote ---I don't know that it was even a formal bit of wizard-jargon (like "veil" for invisibility-magic)... Harry's very-fond of just calling stuff by whatever term comes to mind, and "beacon" struck me as an instance of that..
The "summoner" is someone who actually brings them across from the Nevernever.
Harry knows fetches come into the mortal world via mirrors; as you say, "just part of fetches attributes."
In some cases, the mirrors were the link; the bathroom in Splattercon!!! where Pell got assaulted, for one example: There was Pell, and there was Nelson, and there was not a summoner (or Pell/Nelson would have noticed). So the fetch got itself into the bathroom through the mirror (and, likely, back out again).
--- End quote ---
see above scene. Molly was at home and the fetches we're sent to cross over at splattercon!!! But she was still the harmonic resonance used to tune the fork. What they use to cross, who sends them, and how they actually find and cross into the mortal world would be three very separate things.
--- Quote ---Later, at the screening of the movie where Rosie got injured, Harry's own magical senses could feel someone else's magical working as it went off(*). We don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that was the summoner.
--- End quote ---
same scene as reference, Molly was effectively the only 'summoner' in the mortal world for them to go after.That's other shenanigans, either Maeve Nfected or TT stuff imo.
--- Quote ---So I think we have a strong case for "both" rather than an either/or situation.
Not a "balanced" point: I am alleging that there is no point at all to be made from our info on Fetch-summoning. None of the summons' happened "onscreen," nor did Harry find any summoning-circles. We have precisely zero info about who summoned any of the fetches, or how.
--- End quote ---
I disagree entirely and as I've already countered both of your balanced points. I think the case is quite strong actually.
--- Quote --- All theories on Fetch-summoning are based upon implied data only, and multiple theories about it are more-or-less equally-strongly (or equally-weakly) supported.
--- End quote ---
wrong again, implied theory supplied by actual data. See above for an easy example of what your able to deduce and what's actually there.
--- Quote ---
I will advocate for my own WAG, here: that Molly was being nudged towards black magic by Lea, on Mab's orders: to leverage Harry's severe case of
[White Knight Syndrome]
X
[My Best Friend's Daughter]
X
[Everything-Is-All-My-fault Guilt]
to create a Harry/Molly relationship where Winter already has its claws in. Likely, I think, Nemfected-Maeve got involved (trying to Screw Up Mommy's Plans); I think some of the Fetch action was Maeve's, but mostly it was Mab's (the Madrigal(Darby) Whampire involvement was -- I think -- Cowl's).
(*) -- In the incident where Rosie got hurt, there were actually three magical workings:
#1 The power went out. Maybe that was mortal wizard, either intentionally hexing the power, or just mortal-wizarding the way mortal wizards do (i.e. plays-badly-with-tech); given how widespread the outage, my bet would be that it was intentional. But it could have been a non-mortal, too.
#2 The myrk. My bet is that it was a working of Winter (likely Maeve, maybe Mab), because (a) it came alongside a huge temperature-drop; & (b) a Maeve-likely myrk (& Hobs) was also a Winter Summoning in Small Favor.
#3 The summoning itself, calling "The Reaper" into the movie-screening. If this was Mab or Maeve, they could summon fetches without any "magical working" per se (when one of the Winter Queens wants a winterfae... they just arrive, no circle, no fuss, no muss).
Maybe that was 3 different workings, as many as 3 magic-workers? Maybe it was one magical heavyweight doing three workings simultaneously (or in quick succession)? I don't think we know...
I don't think the Fetches have enough magical mojo to handle that. Gatekeeper is among the best in all creation at spotting Outsiders: if Mab could station Fetches at the Gates, and get a better hit-rate than she gets from the Gatekeeper (or even just give him occasional time to pursue other Outsider incursions, in other places) she'd be doing that; but we haven't a hint of it.
--- End quote ---
indeed? and I can cover the rest of this later I'm sure because I've already mined half of these answers and plum forgot about it. The important part is yes, there's many factual things here from which to deduce my theory. As long as you don't ignore what's there..
Oh and your taking a function of the fetches in reality and arbitrarily applying it somewhere else under the assumption it'd work there. They hunt Fearbringer in reality not guard the gates from everything little incursion. Guard dogs, of tracker's are not gatekeepers.
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