Author Topic: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?  (Read 2547 times)

Offline SerScot

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Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« on: July 13, 2023, 04:57:07 PM »
Several times in the series Harry gets the “mind magic… mental whammy” attempted against him.  It’s magic… so… wouldn’t a quick magic circle be a nice quick block to such efforts?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2023, 05:13:21 PM »
Most mental whammy require blood or body fluid. So the circle is useless. Or contact with the skin or eyes so in this case maybe?

Offline SerScot

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2023, 05:39:04 PM »
Most mental whammy require blood or body fluid. So the circle is useless. Or contact with the skin or eyes so in this case maybe?

Huh?  I thought Circles are fool proof against magical attacks?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline g33k

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2023, 06:40:37 PM »
Huh?  I thought Circles are fool proof against magical attacks?

Dresden magic-rules are whatever Jim Butcher says they are, obviously.
I'm pretty sure that blood/etc provides a link that a circle doesn't break -- it's part of you; so "part of you" is outside the circle!

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2023, 07:38:45 PM »
Against a magical whammy, yes but not against advertising.

This makes me wonder are supernaturals unnaturally vulnerable to mortal advertising? It is a form of Neuromancy (see Mab in Battle Ground) Granny Weatherwax would call it Headology. The Little Folk are extremely susceptible.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2023, 09:49:10 PM »
[quote author=g33k link=topic=54909.msg2359217#msg2359217 date=1689273637]
Dresden magic-rules are whatever Jim Butcher says they are, obviously.
I'm pretty sure that blood/etc provides a link that a circle doesn't break -- it's part of you; so "part of you" is outside the circle!
[/quote]

Hold on… Corpsetaker didn’t have any of Harry’s blood in Dead Beat.  Malvora didn’t have any of Harry’s blood in White Knight.  How could Harry’s blood matter?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2023, 10:24:22 PM »
Dresden magic-rules are whatever Jim Butcher says they are, obviously.
I'm pretty sure that blood/etc provides a link that a circle doesn't break -- it's part of you; so "part of you" is outside the circle!
Dresden rules are hard and fast. Just not seeing it all. However, I'd challenge any discrepancy to be ran through my theorums on the matter lol.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2023, 11:41:03 PM »
It’s the blood of the person making the circle which empowers it.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2023, 09:55:08 AM »
It’s the blood of the person making the circle which empowers it.
that implies they're really just enclosing a space as part of themselves 🤔 and that all magic really does come from within 😂
Seriously tho, the real implications are with summoning. Implying to me to do so you're actually calling like to like with something inside yourself and just using the name as a vector, otherwise it looks more like GP's fishing. That.. that actually jives exactly with my theory on how Nemesis vectors in comparison to the PG summoning explanation...
See folks, everything adds up magically in the DF because I'm fairly sure Jim designed his magic system and then the world around it. The problem is is because of that order of operation a lot of what's going on is based on magic and the world around it specifically so he can't just explain it all. But as he's said he's left all the clues minus one important link in the logical chain. All we're really doing is solving for X. Where the other side equals how the world works/is ordered.
(I really hate encountering that line of reasoning on DF's magical system. It might have holes I haven't seen, but the structure hasn't outright broken that I've seen either)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 09:57:07 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2023, 02:16:43 PM »
I think circles are a further protection of the White God for humanity, like thresholds or dawn break, if that is so then working from that premise they are proof against supernatural intervention. Summoning circles are a different matter and require a pentagram inside, and are powered by the practitioner.

Offline g33k

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2023, 04:19:50 PM »
Several times in the series Harry gets the “mind magic… mental whammy” attempted against him.  It’s magic… so… wouldn’t a quick magic circle be a nice quick block to such efforts?

Depends on the whammy.

White-Council style magic, generally, will be blocked.

The Rampire whammy is based on a chemical/drug effect.  If you've become addicted, you'll likely obey any commands and may even act proactively to please your masters (leaving a protective circle, destroying someone else's, etc).

I don't think we know enough about Whampire or Blampire mental whammies, and whether a circle would stop them.

Offline g33k

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2023, 04:25:38 PM »
Hold on… Corpsetaker didn’t have any of Harry’s blood in Dead Beat.  Malvora didn’t have any of Harry’s blood in White Knight.  How could Harry’s blood matter?

I don't recall that Harry had a protective circle up, in DB, vs. Corpsetaker's attempt on his mind... he was simply running away when she nailed him.
Was there any Malvora attempt in WK upon Harry's mind, when he had a circle raised?

So having / not-having his blood doesn't indicate blood's efficacy at bypassing a circle.


Offline SerScot

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2023, 04:30:12 PM »
I don't recall that Harry had a protective circle up, in DB, vs. Corpsetaker's attempt on his mind... he was simply running away when she nailed him.
Was there any Malvora attempt in WK upon Harry's mind, when he had a circle raised?

So having / not-having his blood doesn't indicate blood's efficacy at bypassing a circle.

He didn’t.  I’m asking why he didn’t attempt to put one up and if he did… if it would have blocked the mental Whammies.  If it wouldn’t have… why wouldn’t the circle protect him?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 04:43:01 PM by SerScot »
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline g33k

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2023, 05:46:11 PM »
He didn’t.  I’m asking why he didn’t attempt to put one up and if he did… if it would have blocked the mental Whammies.  If it wouldn’t have… why wouldn’t the circle protect him?

In Dead Beat, the ghoul was right there... it probably could have taken him out before he had time to form a circle, but even if he got it up, I think they're physical-enough to just walk right through a Circle and mess him up with claws & teeth.

Harry has *never* (that I recall) tried a Circle against ghouls (presumably because it wouldn't work).

But I think that the magic of Capiorcorpus would be blocked by a magic-circle; I just don't think DB ever offered circumstances where Harry could usefully try it.

FWIW, a circle certainly blocked the whammy from the Mind Fog in Summer Knight.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 05:48:49 PM by g33k »

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Would a magic circle protect against mental wammys?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2023, 06:54:22 PM »
Summoning circles areand require a pentagram inside, and are powered by the practitioner.
citations needed. Not every wizard hold to pentagrams like Harry and not every circle used to summon would have them. And not every circle has a living practitioner attached either. Am thinking its implied in the original toot scene he powers the circle with a bit of his own energy or something 🤔
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 06:57:45 PM by The_Sibelis »