Author Topic: Reforming the WC  (Read 2273 times)

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Reforming the WC
« on: July 09, 2023, 07:25:53 PM »

We have discussed how the WC is old and needs to change my question is how. This was brought on by a discussion on reforming the UN. Another useless organization. Or is it?
Do you do get rid of the SC position?. Or have wizards vote for them. DEMOCRACY BOY!!!!. Bare in mind the SC is feared and is the reason why the WC IS FEARED. Luccio implies that as long as the SC stands wizards will win the RC war no matter what happens to the wardens. Do choose a Merlin who is weak but good at politics? How will you hold the WC together? If the SC is now weak.
Do you give little talent membership? Will they vote?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2023, 05:13:53 PM »
Well Harry is a Nuclear Power and therefore deserves a permanent seat on the Security Council.

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2023, 09:28:31 AM »
Given his behavior. Invading nations, disregarding rules of law he would fit right in with the rest

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2023, 10:28:26 AM »
You commit genocide once and they never forget.

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2023, 05:09:05 PM »
It wasn't even a big genocide just a tiny one. It actually how i go in to the series. A friend was like the books are great, Dresden kills those who mess with him, burns those who mess with is friends and kills your whole species if you mess with his daughter. I was sold on the books

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2023, 04:03:06 AM »
WC is out, paranet is in. It's a cycle lol. Order of druids are out, wizard's are in, ect.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2023, 05:08:13 AM »
Yes the Paranet is the ultimate fusion of two limbs of evolution of defense against the supernatural predators (1) magical talent and (2) use of technology.

That would make Paranoid Gary the omega point  of human evolution.

Oh crap.

But in The Law we see how he out performs Bob the previously all knowing talking head Spirit of Intellect. He has out evolved Bob

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2023, 03:44:26 PM »
My issue with the paranet is thaf its too loose anyone cn join. Paranoid Gary. That guy will upset something/someone and require protection plenty soon.
Who is in charge

Offline g33k

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2023, 04:30:16 PM »
My issue with the paranet ...
Who is in charge

Elaine Mallory.

Probable Starborn.
Likely Nemesis-infectee (she's the vector that got Aurora).

Offline g33k

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2023, 04:43:18 PM »
Well Harry is a Nuclear Power and therefore deserves a permanent seat on the Security Council.

I have a WAG that the "White Council" (which, by definition, are advisors -- councilors -- to someone above them) are supposed to be adjuncts to The Warden, and the wardens of the White Council are supposed to be direct-reports to The Warden, not to the Council.

Let's face it:  The Warden (with a Wellfull of badassery on tap) is overwhelmingly more-powerful than the entirety of the White Council.

The Warden & the Well, together, protect from threats overwhelmingly more-severe than everything the White Council ever faces -- all the sorcerors they ever put down don't amount to a single Etheniu (let alone multiple entities on that scale); Kemmler might have come close, but not even Darkhallow-Kemmler would have been able to face down the Faerie-Queens & Odin &c in the big battle of Battle Ground.

It only makes sense -- when you consider that both the Well and the White Council were established by Merlin -- that he'd put The Warden up at the apex of authority, and delegate some councilors to handle the smaller details.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2023, 07:36:17 PM »
Elaine Mallory.

Probable Starborn.
Likely Nemesis-infectee (she's the vector that got Aurora).

Unless you consider Nameless to be Cowl, Nameless got Maeve to fix her Court in Chicago during Grave Peril where he nemfected Lea with the Athame. This forced Aurora to move her Court to Chicago and Nameless nemfected her in a similar manner, most likely through Lloyd Slate the Wnter Knight, who it should be noted betrayed Winter despite his Mantle and started working with Summer. The Nemfection left the already hopelessly corrupted Lloyd Slate for Aurora. Elaine  was already in the Summer Court for a decade before any Nemfection arose. The progression of Leas nemfection was considerably faster than over a decade and she was older and more powerful.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2023, 03:38:36 AM »
We have discussed how the WC is old and needs to change my question is how. This was brought on by a discussion on reforming the UN. Another useless organization. Or is it?
Do you do get rid of the SC position?. Or have wizards vote for them. DEMOCRACY BOY!!!!. Bare in mind the SC is feared and is the reason why the WC IS FEARED. Luccio implies that as long as the SC stands wizards will win the RC war no matter what happens to the wardens. Do choose a Merlin who is weak but good at politics? How will you hold the WC together? If the SC is now weak.
Do you give little talent membership? Will they vote?

Whatever form the reformed Council took, it would still have to look a lot like the current one to function at all.

The nasty, inescapable fact is that in terms of magical power, 'are men are created unequal', and all women too.  Almost anybody, per WOJ, can learn to do a little magic in the Dresdenverse.  It would be a lot of hard work for say 90-95% and not much result, probably not worth the trouble and risk.

The remaining 5-10% or so include your moderate talents, the Kim Delaneys, the Binders, the Victor Sells types, the hedge casters and mid-rankers and a few with some serious voltage.  Some of them are super-good at some specific subset of magic, like Mort or Binder, but not so much at the rest of it.  Of course most of this 5-10% have no idea of their own potential power and never try to use it or train it.  But they could do it, potentially, and some of them could do it enough to be useful if they knew it.

But only a tiny fraction of that 5-10% of the human race is remotely at Wizard level.  The WC is made up of several thousand people, but that's out of several billion people in the world.  Grant that not every Council-potential candidate gets found and trained.  Let's say there are three or four potential Wizards for every one that gets identified and trained.  Let's say there, oh, maybe 30,000 or 40,000 people on Earth who could, potentially, become a Council member with the right training.

Forty thousand out of eight billion is one person in 200,000.  Plus, that's probably over-generous, there probably are fewer potential Wizards than 40,000.

If you open up the Council to all practitioners, you create an organization that is both too big to function and too weak to do anything, and would inevitably end up dominated by the Wizard-level players anyway.  The gap is just that big.

Likewise, the Senior Councillors are already technically elected by the overall Council.  But if the Council elects a weak SC...then the Council itself is hamstrung in dealing with their enemies and restraining the bad players among the magical community, too.  The Council might reasonably elect a merlin who is not the absolute 100% most powerful Council member, if he had other useful talents or abilities.  But they would still need to pick someone in that general ballpark.

The way the WC works arises in much because of the realities of how magic works, and how the supernatural world is organized.  A reformed or replaced Council is probably going to end up looking at least a lot like the current one, maybe with some new blood and new policies, maybe some changes on the margins.

I could imagine, for ex, that the Council might permit the larger supernatural community to elect representatives to speak for them on the Council, not full members, but associates of some kind.  Things like that.  I could see a reformed Council being somewhat more 'open' about its doing, at least among the magical community, more willing to listen.

But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 03:50:12 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2023, 04:03:14 AM »
I have a WAG that the "White Council" (which, by definition, are advisors -- councilors -- to someone above them) are supposed to be adjuncts to The Warden, and the wardens of the White Council are supposed to be direct-reports to The Warden, not to the Council.

Let's face it: The Warden (with a Wellfull of badassery on tap) is overwhelmingly more-powerful than the entirety of the White Council.



Yeah...in the same sense than a man carrying an armed nuclear warhead is more powerful than the city police force.  It's power, all right, but it's a very blunt instrument and actually using it is likely to be suicidal.

If Harry threatened to release something big league to force the WC to heel, it might work...once.  But now the whole Council, including any who still sympathized with him at all are gonna want him deader than dead, ASAP.  Even if he's safe from them on Demonreach (which isn't totally certain but I wouldn't rule it out), he's now more or less trapped there.  Plus there are going to be other supernatural players no happier with him.

With the stakes that high, the outside world could try things like taking his loved ones hostage or the like, too.  Even a lot of the 'good guys' might resort to such means if the stakes were that high.  Plus, if he's corrupt enough to start doing stuff like that, he might get a Knight of the Cross after him.  I doubt if even Alfred could be fully sure of protecting Harry against a Knight on the clock.

All in all, it would be a really stupid thing for him to try.  Like I said, power, but blunt instrument power.  A sledgehammer can be an effective tool of destruction, but it's not much use in fine surgery.

Quote
The Warden & the Well, together, protect from threats overwhelmingly more-severe than everything the White Council ever faces -- all the sorcerors they ever put down don't amount to a single Etheniu (let alone multiple entities on that scale); Kemmler might have come close, but not even Darkhallow-Kemmler would have been able to face down the Faerie-Queens & Odin &c in the big battle of Battle Ground.

Demonreach is a prison.  It holds the Trouble, but somebody has to put the Trouble in there.  That Somebody, usually, is the Wardens and the Council.  Those mega-nasties are trapped in Demonreach because the White Council put them there, for the most part.  THE Warden can direct Alfred to contain a megapower, and it'll usually happen...IF that mega-nasty happens to be on Demonreach.

Paraphrasing JB a while back, 'what you think of Alfred and THE Warden depends on where you stand, literally.  Meaning your GPS coordinates.  If you're on the island, you'd better bring your A game.  If you're anywhere else, it's "who cares?" '.

Demonreach is a part of the Council's extended power base and 'system'.  It's not the whole of it and it's not the sole reason for the Council's existence, and without the Council, Demonreach would be very nearly useless.

Offline g33k

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2023, 06:04:16 PM »
... This forced Aurora to move her Court to Chicago and Nameless nemfected her in a similar manner, most likely through Lloyd Slate the Wnter Knight, who it should be noted betrayed Winter despite his Mantle and started working with Summer ...
I find it a bit dubious that any Summer Lady would ever trust a Winter Knight enough to give him the chance to Nemfect her.  I expect Aurora's own (pre-existing) Nemfection led to the cross-Court alliance.

Slate's Mantle guaranteed obedience only to Winter Law, not to a member of the Court (even the Queens).  WK-Harry has no problems contacting WL-Lily, chatting with her, etc etc etc.  He has no problems considering how to thwart Mab, or Maeve; nor does he have problems actually doing so.

... Elaine was already in the Summer Court for a decade before any Nemfection arose. The progression of Leas nemfection was considerably faster than over a decade and she was older and more powerful. 

We *know* that Nemesis is fine with playing the Long Game... a decade?  Ffft.

But -- notwithstanding the possibility that Lea outclassed the Summer Lady in "raw power" -- it's also very possible that something to do with Mantles gave Aurora an extra "edge" that Lea didn't have (an "edge" that already-chafing-and-resentful Maeve didn't want, didn't use).

With Justin a known Outsider-summoner, known to work with mental-domination magic, Elaine as the athame striking Summer is a top-tier candidate for the Nemfection-vector.

Offline g33k

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Re: Reforming the WC
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2023, 06:59:20 PM »
Whatever form the reformed Council took, it would still have to look a lot like the current one to function at all.

The nasty, inescapable fact is that in terms of magical power, 'are men are created unequal', and all women too.  Almost anybody, per WOJ, can learn to do a little magic in the Dresdenverse.  It would be a lot of hard work for say 90-95% and not much result, probably not worth the trouble and risk.

The remaining 5-10% or so include your moderate talents, the Kim Delaneys, the Binders, the Victor Sells types, the hedge casters and mid-rankers and a few with some serious voltage.  Some of them are super-good at some specific subset of magic, like Mort or Binder, but not so much at the rest of it.  Of course most of this 5-10% have no idea of their own potential power and never try to use it or train it.  But they could do it, potentially, and some of them could do it enough to be useful if they knew it.

But only a tiny fraction of that 5-10% of the human race is remotely at Wizard level.  The WC is made up of several thousand people, but that's out of several billion people in the world.  Grant that not every Council-potential candidate gets found and trained.  Let's say there are three or four potential Wizards for every one that gets identified and trained.  Let's say there, oh, maybe 30,000 or 40,000 people on Earth who could, potentially, become a Council member with the right training.

Forty thousand out of eight billion is one person in 200,000.  Plus, that's probably over-generous, there probably are fewer potential Wizards than 40,000.

If you open up the Council to all practitioners, you create an organization that is both too big to function and too weak to do anything, and would inevitably end up dominated by the Wizard-level players anyway.  The gap is just that big.

Likewise, the Senior Councillors are already technically elected by the overall Council.  But if the Council elects a weak SC...then the Council itself is hamstrung in dealing with their enemies and restraining the bad players among the magical community, too.  The Council might reasonably elect a merlin who is not the absolute 100% most powerful Council member, if he had other useful talents or abilities.  But they would still need to pick someone in that general ballpark.

The way the WC works arises in much because of the realities of how magic works, and how the supernatural world is organized.  A reformed or replaced Council is probably going to end up looking at least a lot like the current one, maybe with some new blood and new policies, maybe some changes on the margins.

I could imagine, for ex, that the Council might permit the larger supernatural community to elect representatives to speak for them on the Council, not full members, but associates of some kind.  Things like that.  I could see a reformed Council being somewhat more 'open' about its doing, at least among the magical community, more willing to listen.

But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.
The White Council is fading.  They rose to power primarily because of their nearly-unique mix of ability-to-find-stuff-out, ability-to-coordinate (via Ways & other magic-comm's), and logistical advantages.  The modern world's Internet can out-info and out-communicate the White Council, and modern transport are a close-second-place for physical logistics.  With the exception of a few individuals (not the WC as a whole!) the Wizards simply haven't kept up.  In The Law, we see Paranoid Gary out-research Bob, regarding a supernatural threat.  Arguably, then, the Paranet has already surpassed the WC in some regards; "Information" -- knowledge, data, the relationship between them (and the differences) -- is its own whole (mostly-modern) field of (intense) study, in ways prior generations (including wizards) cannot conceive.

Knowledge, they say, is power.  Harry has hammered on this point repeatedly:  wizards (he in particular) can achieve startling victories, by virtue of knowing their foes and prepping ahead of time.  WoJ says this is how the WC got to be as powerful as it did (and why being locked-out of the modern info-rich world is, inevitably, sapping that power).

Knowledge is, in fact, more powerful than raw power.  Again, WoJ emphasizes that "punching-match" power-comparisons are largely beside the point, in the Dresdenverse.  The one who has the better info, the better prep, is the one who wins.

===

As for an "expanded council" being "too big to function" -- please note that this is exactly how many modern nations work today, the "representative democracies."  All the citizens (millions of them!) vote for "representatives" who actually form the government.  In the USA's Federal government, there's roughly 450 elected offices; the UK's Houses of Lords+Commons is over 1400 IIRC.  And then there are a huge number of state/province/county/parish/etc representatives, also elected.  The size, complexity, and variety are staggering.

So "growing" the active "wizarding world" membership is clearly viable.

And it's terribly, horribly necessary:  there are increasing numbers of Wizard-level talents going Warlock, and needing to be killed.  First off, that's horrific in its own right, as these people were mostly victims of ignorance, who could have been decent upstanding Wizards if only given proper training; it borders on being "negligent homicide" on the part of the WC.  But from a purely-cynical & self-interested perspective:  the Wizards need those warlocks they're killing.  The threat-levels from the Supernatural world have increased (those Rampire punks almost took them, fer cryin' out loud!), and look to be increasing further.  The Black Council is still operating without any overt WC awareness or opposition.  The White Council is losing.

But it's not just the Wizard-level talents.  Harry has been impressed, more than once, by sub-wizard level Wards.  The Ordo Lebes had surprisingly-strong wards they collectively-raised on all their doors, and put similar wards up for Butters.  The Paranet exists largely to help the lower-level talents survive under these new threat-levels, and it has largely been succeeding.  Talents like Paranoid Gary & Mort, in their specific spheres, exceed anything the WC can muster!  And there are millions of them, not mere thousands.

Those millions are essential if the WC is to spot, educate, and organize the talents of the world into something that can survive the upcoming apocalypse.

And not as the second-class-citizens you suggest.  Most of them are modern folk, and won't be willing to suffer that kind of prejudice & stigma.