The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Can one of the Fallen become infected by Nemesis? And if so...?
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Melriken on April 21, 2023, 04:52:26 PM ---That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?
FACT.
Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.
Page 330page 348page 346
I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...
But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Melriken on April 21, 2023, 04:52:26 PM ---That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?
FACT.
--- End quote ---
Just to be clear - facts are statements of nigh-indisputable truth. I am not sure that applies here. Mostly people say fact when what they really mean is collective opinion on a topic. Neither I would say apply here, to be honest.
And while I agree it is most likely the White God that Nicodemus is referring to, it isn't fact YET. That would require some exposition like Nicodemus saying to Dresden "The Enemy I fight against is The Almighty himself" or something along those lines, or Jim saying in an interview that the Enemy that Nic was referring to was TWG. But we don't have either of those. We just have speculation - which is deliberate on Jim's part (otherwise he wouldn't have used the label "The Enemy" and just said whoever Nic's great enemy is).
He could mean Lucifer, or an Outsider/Old One, or some other being we don't know of. The point is, the identity of Nic's "Enemy" is up for debate still and will be until we get further evidence.
Melriken:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 23, 2023, 10:49:01 PM ---Just to be clear - facts are statements of nigh-indisputable truth. I am not sure that applies here. Mostly people say fact when what they really mean is collective opinion on a topic. Neither I would say apply here, to be honest.
And while I agree it is most likely the White God that Nicodemus is referring to, it isn't fact YET. That would require some exposition like Nicodemus saying to Dresden "The Enemy I fight against is The Almighty himself" or something along those lines, or Jim saying in an interview that the Enemy that Nic was referring to was TWG. But we don't have either of those. We just have speculation - which is deliberate on Jim's part (otherwise he wouldn't have used the label "The Enemy" and just said whoever Nic's great enemy is).
He could mean Lucifer, or an Outsider/Old One, or some other being we don't know of. The point is, the identity of Nic's "Enemy" is up for debate still and will be until we get further evidence.
--- End quote ---
I will give you that he could be referring to Lucifer. I should clarify... when I said fact it was with two stipulations. First that the options were Fact or Opinion. Within that dichotomy it is more accurate to say Fact. Second the fact is that Enemy isn't a reference to Nemesis rather than that enemy is a reference to TWG.
If the discussion were about Enemy meaning Lucifer or TWG I wouldn't have claimed it was a fact.
If the question wasn't asked (Fact or Opinion) I wouldn't have claimed it was a fact.
I probably shouldn't have claimed it was a fact, or at least not claimed it as hard as I did. I should have said it was more a fact than an opinion.
Enemy isn't a name for Nemesis. Adversary is. And that line can't be read as a reference to Nemesis even if Enemy was a name of Nemesis because the coin isn't left, the fallen isn't left, and dead mortals don't fear Nemesis...
I find it unlikely that Enemy refers to Lucifer, I find it impossible that it refers to nemesis.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Melriken on April 22, 2023, 02:29:46 AM ---As I said, even if you were right you would be wrong.
Nic took the coin and left the human soul of Diedre in Hades. The entire conversation is about the human portion not the fallen. The human portion is vulnerable to nimfection. Everyone agrees. The soul is not vulnerable to nimfection, in hell or hades underworld… your argument can’t support itself. If he was talking about nemesis the comment is meaningless because the dead don’t worry about nimfection… and the human part would be vulnerable regardless and the fallen portion isn’t part of Nic’s comment…
--- End quote ---
What if Deirdre was nemfected? Still resisting, not giving in; but with a 2nd spiritual tempter/coercer in her head, trying to make her betray Creation and her father and all that?
It was a masterstroke by Nicodemus -- he removes a potent Nemfection from the ranks of the Fallen, and from Creation itself (so the Fallen can advance their own plans, which the Outsider plans would ruin); he saves his daughter from the Nemesis within her; and he gets a new Denarius that hasn't been in-play for a thousand years!
Melriken:
--- Quote from: g33k on April 24, 2023, 08:42:14 PM ---What if Deirdre was nemfected? Still resisting, not giving in; but with a 2nd spiritual tempter/coercer in her head, trying to make her betray Creation and her father and all that?
It was a masterstroke by Nicodemus -- he removes a potent Nemfection from the ranks of the Fallen, and from Creation itself (so the Fallen can advance their own plans, which the Outsider plans would ruin); he saves his daughter from the Nemesis within her; and he gets a new Denarius that hasn't been in-play for a thousand years!
--- End quote ---
lol
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: g33k on April 24, 2023, 08:42:14 PM ---What if Deirdre was nemfected? Still resisting, not giving in; but with a 2nd spiritual tempter/coercer in her head, trying to make her betray Creation and her father and all that?
It was a masterstroke by Nicodemus -- he removes a potent Nemfection from the ranks of the Fallen, and from Creation itself (so the Fallen can advance their own plans, which the Outsider plans would ruin); he saves his daughter from the Nemesis within her; and he gets a new Denarius that hasn't been in-play for a thousand years!
--- End quote ---
This is an interesting idea, but why would Dierdre have agreed to it? If she was nemfected she would have to be resisting that infection to agree to be murdered to be freed from it, which is a rather extreme cure in any case. I think I would rather be put in one of Mab's ice cubes and hope I didn't freeze to death.
My problem with this being the case is we have no reason to suggest that Dierdre had as much ability to resist being taken over than Lea or Cat Sith. Lea just held herself together long enough to get Mab's help and Nemesis pretty much crushed Cat Sith's efforts to remain himself. It's not an impossible idea, it just seems a bit far fetched to me.
Now as far as whether Nicodemus was referring to TWG or Nemesis I have a question or two. Why would Diedre need protection from the Nemesis once she's dead? She can't be nemfected any longer, so why would her spirit care? Unless Nicodemus meant that Hades would be safe even if Nemesis and the Outsiders won and took over. That seems an odd thought, but I suppose it's possible. Then again, if that was the case, wouldn't all afterlife realms be safe? Dierdre wouldn't be any less safe from the Nemesis if she was in Hell. For those reasons, I tend to lean towards the idea that Nic was referring to TWG.
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