The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Can one of the Fallen become infected by Nemesis? And if so...?

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g33k:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 18, 2023, 05:29:36 AM --- ... Do you believe Angels, Fallen and Outsiders are actually all the same beings? And you must also then include other primordial spirits that then became known as gods and monsters that existed before Creation began. Interesting idea, thinking of them all as simply different factions. And could well be correct. That said, Outsiders do seem to have a qualitative difference to every other being. But perhaps that just because they live Outside. I mean, you have to be right to some degree. Any being that proceeded the beginning of all Creation (the creation of the multiverse) is sort-of an Outsider, because that seems to be all there was Before Creation. Although it wasn't Outside "back then" it simply was everything that was.

Not sure it's what Jim has written. But I don't mind the idea at all ...
--- End quote ---

The basic idea is pretty old in geekdom.  I don't know of any specific "origin" or "oldest instance."

Most religious art is horribly unfaithful to Biblical accounts.
Here are some angels, if you take the Bible literally:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/sq4aov/biblically_accurate_angel/

Which, if I'm gonna be honest, vibe more for "Outsider" than for "Uriel &co" (at least as Jim has written them).

HOWEVER... recall the time Harry tried to use his Sight on an angel, early-on in Ghost Story -- the Angel shut him down!  So maybe the "big reveal" would have been, "looks like any other Outsider."

Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 18, 2023, 05:29:36 AM ---I agree that it's probably more likely the host is infected rather than the Fallen. But it wasn't so long ago on this very forum (and just about every other Jim Butcher discussion forum) prior to Battle Ground being released that most people firmly believed mortals COULDN'T be infected by Nemesis (despite rather clear evidence to the contrary, and the fact that Lily said revealed it in Cold Days). Only seeing an infected Justine convinced people. That said, there is a WOJ that deliberately is ambiguous when asked whether a Fallen could be infected. I can find it for you if you want.

--- End quote ---

I was always on the side that humans were susceptible just because it eliminates dramatic tension if Harry doesn't have to worry about most of his nearest and dearest.

That said, I'm still not entirely sure Justine isn't secretly a scion of something. There was a fairly old WOJ that there's something about her that Thomas knows and Harry doesn't, which either indicates he's known Nemesis had her hostage for several books worth of time and not done anything about it, or it's something about her background.

Melriken:

--- Quote from: g33k on April 19, 2023, 12:15:55 AM ---Most religious art is horribly unfaithful to Biblical accounts.
Here are some angels, if you take the Bible literally:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/sq4aov/biblically_accurate_angel/

Which, if I'm gonna be honest, vibe more for "Outsider" than for "Uriel &co" (at least as Jim has written them).
--- End quote ---

I don't think that is actually true.  Most biblical accounts of Angels describe them as men.  There are biblical accounts of people inviting strangers into their house and giving them a meal only for the stranger to reveal that they are an angel and do something miraculous.  This is EXACTLY how Jim writes Uriel... looks just like a random normal human, no wings, nothing. (Genesis 19, Hebrews13:2, Numbers 22:31, Judges 6:11-12)

There are other accounts with stranger descriptions like:
Isaiah 6:2 "Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew."
Ezekiel 1:5-9 "And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had a human likeness, but each had four faces, and each of them had four wings. Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the sole of a calf's foot. And they sparkled like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. And the four had their faces and their wings thus: their wings touched one another."
The images you linked appear to be from Ezekiel 10, but I wouldn't exactly call the images accurate to Ezekiel 10 either (Ezekiel 10:12 "Their entire bodies, including their backs, hands, and wings, were full of eyes all around, as were their four wheels", but it is repeatedly stated that the wheels were beside the Cheribum (verse 9: Then I looked and saw four wheels beside the cherubim, one wheel beside each cherub; verse 16: When the cherubim moved, the wheels moved beside them, and even when they spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not veer away from their side.)
There are a LOT of descriptions of Angels that are super short and describe the angel holding a sword in their hand ("And the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. And David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, and in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem.")

A being that can appear human, or can appear large enough to hold a sword over a city (with the intention of destroying the city), can be invisible, can enter and exit areas without going through doors or other perimeters... this is very consistent with both Jim's writing and the Bible...  Jim is biblically inaccurate in a million other ways, but his depiction of angels is fine.

Melriken:

--- Quote from: OutsideIn on April 21, 2023, 04:27:53 AM ---Opinion or fact?
--- End quote ---
That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?

FACT.

Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.

Page 330

--- Quote from: Skin_Game ---"... wish there was another way," Nicodemus was saying quietly. "But you're the only one I can trust."
"I know, Father," Deirdre said. "It's all right."
"You will be safe from the Enemy here."
--- End quote ---
page 348

--- Quote from: Skin_Game ---"I have one more question," I said.
"Mortals generally do."
"What will happen to Deirdre?"
Hades drew in his breath. His face became expressionless. For a long moment, I thought he wasn't going to answer, but then he said, "Relatively few new shades come into my realm these days. Foremost amongst them are those who perish in the gates -- particularly at the Gate of Blood. She will remain in my keeping."
"The things she's done," I said quietly. "The people she's hurt. And she gets to skate justice?"
--- End quote ---
page 346

--- Quote from: ---"The funny part is that bit about her being protected from Hell," I said. "You brought her here and expected that she wouldn't get her sentence? Have you read Greek mythology? Do you know the kinds of things Hades sentences people to endure? At least Hell is, by all reports, more or less nondiscriminatory. Down here, they get personal. did you just try to give her a comforting lie at the last minute? Just to make sure she pulled the lever?"
--- End quote ---

I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...

But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Melriken on April 19, 2023, 06:46:27 PM ---... looks just like a random normal human, no wings, nothing. (Genesis 19, Hebrews13:2, Numbers 22:31, Judges 6:11-12)
--- End quote ---

Genesis 19:1-2 clearly speaks to angels who appear identical to men.

The translation of Hebrews 13:2 is debated -- the original meaning may not even be "angels," as the literal translation there is "messenger" and some suggest the original Koine verse may just have meant mundane messengers and similarly-important (but genuinely-human) visitors.

In Numbers 22:21-30, the angel was at first invisible to Balaam; only his donkey saw it (and was terrified...  so the angel clearly did NOT look like a random normal human).  Numbers 22:31 actually specifies nothing about the appearance of the angel:  "Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown."  Between the terror of the donkey and Balaam himself "falling facedown," I think this speaks to an inherently-frightening appearance, not even slightly normal or human.

Judges 6:11-13 again has no description of the angel; but neither is there any description of terror or an overawing appearance.  Indeed, Gideon immediately begins arguing with the angel, even demanding proof!  I think "looks human" to be (by far) the most-likely understanding of the text.

All of which only shows that angels can look human... sometimes.

Equally, they can look entirely non-human.

Rather famously, one of the most-common things for angels in the bible is to introduce themselves with "fear not."  I take the straightforward conclusion that most angels have a frightening and/or inhuman appearance.

There is some evidence that angels can appear to be human, when it suits their divine mission; but that this is not their true form (this line of evidence rather supports the Hebrews 13:2 translation of "angel" as being correct -- the divine beings wanted to appear human).



--- Quote from: Melriken on April 19, 2023, 06:46:27 PM --- A being that can appear human, or can appear large enough to hold a sword over a city (with the intention of destroying the city), can be invisible, can enter and exit areas without going through doors or other perimeters... this is very consistent with both Jim's writing and the Bible...  Jim is biblically inaccurate in a million other ways, but his depiction of angels is fine.
--- End quote ---
I wasn't saying Jim is inaccurate in portraying angels.  Jim has taken Uriel, whom he defines as "God's spook" (i.e. most covert angel) as his primary Harry-facing angel; for Uriel (and his angelic underlings) to always appear as human seems entirely-biblical!

My criticism was of most "religious art" which overwhelmingly portrays angels as human-like, in explicit contradiction of biblical accounts (and of the follow-on effects in pop-culture and most people's "cherubic" understanding).

I think you're correct that the art I linked took its inspiration from Ezekiel -- note that Ezekiel was talking about cherubs!  Courtesy of religious art, we "know" exactly what that looks like; in fact we use ancillary words like "cherubic" which we take to describe particularly-sweet-looking children!  Now that's a spit-take!

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