The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

A Thought About The Items From Hades

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Eguzky:
Idea: Christ's Crucifixion Was A Result Of, Or Action Against, The Outsiders

We know that items pertaining to Christ's crucifixion are back in play as weapons against the Outsiders. And belief holds that Christ gave his life to absolve humanity of their sins, right? Well, what if we changed 'absolve humanity of sin' to 'protect humanity from Outsiders'?
It would fit that God's son gave his life to protect humanity and, in so doing, created items that can be used explicitly to fight the Outsiders he was striking back against.
Heck, I would not be surprised if Judas was working with the Outsiders to kill Christ, possibly in a ritual aimed at God, but Christ turned it around and made a willing sacrifice to protect the world. I mean, why else would items of faith have power against Outsiders when there's not a whole lot of people believing they would?

seanham:
I like your idea; however, why would Christ wait until year 33 to sacrifice himself? Wouldn't it have made more since to sacrifice himself at the start of creation? Maybe the Outsiders were about to break through, and Christ's sacrifice was to reinforce the barrier? I had a WAG a while back where I proposed that the five artifacts could summon Christ himself.

On the other hand, I am not sure Jim would change the reason for Jesus's crucifixion/life. It is such an important moment to so many people that it could be dangerous for his career/book sales to mess too much with it.

g33k:
I thought Jim had hinted that Christ himself was a Starborn.  n.b. this doesn't have to be "instead of" the Biblical account of the Son of Man / Son of God, but sits very-nicely alongside it, as a hidden ancillary -- by being Starborn, He linked Himself into the Starborn cycles, enabling other Starborn to wield His artifacts & relics against the Outsiders.

Christianity has a very long and deep tradition -- older in fact than the Church itself! -- of esoteric / occult / Gnostic / mystery-cult thinking and practice.  We see just such an organization in the Ordo Malleus, to which Forthill himself belongs.

Conspiracy Theorist:
My theory? Christ got Nemfected because the White God just had to have a human avatar and the Crucifixion was to cure him, the crown to subdue, the grail to purify, the placard to protect,  the spear to alter the probability of success and the Shroud the revive the avatar.

The nails we know were thee Angels. This leads to a question.

What happened to the holy claw hammer, and is it secretly in the ownership of Michael Carpenter? It would explain so much.

I think the artefacts are actually former Gods or Archangels, placed in that form by the White God.

Basil:
The Shroud, the Placard, the Spear, the Grail, the Sword and the Coins are not Outsider specific artifacts.  They just happen to be effective against everything -- as Dresden notes about the Spear.  He says, it was more real than everything else, it was not just a spear -- it was a spear against everything.  Nicodemus intended to use the pseudo-Shroud to start a plague when we first met him.  I think it more likely that they are all-purpose items. 

As for JC being a Star Born -- I dunno, it doesn't seem like the timing works out, every 666 years or so from 4 BC means Star Born cycles at 662AD, 1328AD and 1994AD.  Dresden (and Butcher) are GenX'ers to the core and so the timing is off by several decades, regardless of whether you use 7BC, 4BC or 1AD for the birth of JC.

As for JC being Nemfected, that seems unlikely.  JC is a person of the Trinity, so the HS and the Father would also be Nemfected. Whether you personally believe in God, clearly that being is "real" for purposes of the Dresdenverse and according to the Nicene Creed -- the Father and the Son are of the same substance:


--- Quote ---We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    consubstantial to the father
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
        he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
        he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
        and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
        he suffered death and was buried.
        On the third day he rose again
            in accordance with the Scriptures;
        he ascended into heaven
            and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
        and his kingdom will have no end.
 
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
        and the life of the world to come. Amen.
--- End quote ---

Personally, I do not believe that Angels are contained within the Placard, Shroud, Grail or Spear.  There are Angels in the Swords, just as there are Demons in the Coins.  I don't think an imprisoned (willing or otherwise) being is required to make a potent artifact.  I'm fairly sure that no Demon resides in Marcone's butterfly knife, which he successfully used on Ethniue, it worked because Marcone has Infernal sponsorship.  (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?). 

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