Author Topic: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat  (Read 5277 times)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24061
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2022, 11:23:10 PM »
Perhaps Shaggy had seen Night of the Lepus, and it gave him nightmares?

More like Monty Python's "Search for the Holy Grail.."

Offline JTass

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2022, 11:31:36 PM »
This appears to say that Shagnasty has seen spells like this before, AKA Merlin's work. So where else could he have seen this work? We know that the Naagloshii are based in the American Southwest, and typically Merlin lore comes out of Europe, so did Merlin do more spell work in America, or did the Naagloshii travel across the pond to Europe sometime. Also, any ideas what else would require this complex level of spell work to be laid down?

I interpreted that from the opposite direction than you did... I made the assumption that the creator of the wards (didn't know it was Merlin at the time) had incorporated elements of Native American magic that were effective against Naagloshi.
So it's not that Shagnasty was familiar with Merlin's works, it's that Merlin was familiar with  Naagloshi and included protections against them that were recognizable to Shagnasty.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 11:33:57 PM by JTass »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2022, 12:21:27 AM »
Naagloshinare semi divine, would these wards work against Angels, even Mr Sunshine.

Offline JTass

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2022, 12:36:47 AM »
Naagloshinare semi divine, would these wards work against Angels, even Mr Sunshine.

Only Jim knows...
As I said, my assumption was that Merlin's wards incorporated elements of Native American shamanic magic specifically targeted against Naagloshi. If that's the case, they probably wouldn't affect angels of The White God.
However, it's also possible that Merlin incorporated Judeo-Christian symbology capable of thwarting angels as well (one would assume with the intention of protection against the Fallen rather than Mr Sunshine and his brethren).

*Edit* Scratch that - Nicky and/or the Nickelheads had no problem entering the tower in order to set up or repurpose the circle designed to contain Ivy.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 12:46:08 AM by JTass »

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24061
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2022, 04:54:20 AM »
Quote
*Edit* Scratch that - Nicky and/or the Nickelheads had no problem entering the tower in order to set up or repurpose the circle designed to contain Ivy.

Could it be because at that time there was no Warden for the island?  Remember there are defenses that only the Warden can turn on.  Yeah, I know Harry wasn't officially Warden as of Turn Coat, but he had become aware of the island and it him after he had done his thing with Alfred.  Maybe that made the difference?

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2022, 05:20:22 AM »
Very different scenarios.

The Naagloshii are creatures of spirit, they are closer to being like angels than physical beings. While they are not demons like Chauncy, I would say they are quite similar to Fae yet no mortal origin. They are not like Wraiths or other such full-spirit creatures. But they are much more spirit than physical, mortal being. They are Immortals after all (the original Naagloshii I mean).

The Fallen in the Coins are travelling through the physical world in a vessel they were bound in, used by the will of mortals. Just like the Knights of the Cross and their Swords. Thresholds don't bother either of them in those circumstances. The only thing that has stopped them to my memory were the angelic guards at the Carpenter house.

I'd say those wards keep out everything but mortal creatures. As we know though, there are defences that can be activated to keep everything out if needed. I suspect there are very few beings that could break-in via brute force.

 

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2022, 07:48:13 PM »
I am currently re-reading Turn Coat, and I came across a very interesting line when the Naagloshii encountered the spells around the cottage and tower (page 447 of the paperback)
This appears to say that Shagnasty has seen spells like this before, AKA Merlin's work. So where else could he have seen this work? We know that the Naagloshii are based in the American Southwest, and typically Merlin lore comes out of Europe, so did Merlin do more spell work in America, or did the Naagloshii travel across the pond to Europe sometime. Also, any ideas what else would require this complex level of spell work to be laid down?
I'm going to offer some thoughts, I won't dignify it as a wag. One is a matter of semantics. Demonereach was built and I quote.
Quote
“Merlin didn’t build the prison five times,” Bob said. “He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 173). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The semantic issue arises out of the arrow of time, build a thing in the past and it exists in all time going forward.  If on the other hand you build it in the future and want it in the past then you have to build it backwards. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

The second note is about who could know of those symbols. There are two sets of characters in the books who could know. Angels and the Archive. Since the Archive contains the body of knowledge of the human race, if the symbols were used by humans she knows and understands them. And of course angels are know it all's.

A final note. If the Oblivion War is meant to wipe out all knowledge of the things that live in the prison then you have to accept that the prison will eventually need to pass out of human memory. That implies that there will be a final Warden.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2022, 09:09:44 PM »
I suspect there is no written record of Demonreach, and that the Merlin and the Archive have been working at cross purposes all along.

Now Thomas and Lara are Venators, I am not sure Thomas has been downside before Peace Talks, but Lara must after Battle Ground realise Demonreach is a prison. And Harry is about to marry her. And the Archive is likely to be invited to the wedding. Oh dear......

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 12:24:17 AM »
I will point out that the symbols are symbols and as such part of the human lexicon.  If the Archive doesn't know them then she isn't what Jim says she is.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2022, 02:22:09 AM »
I'm going to offer some thoughts, I won't dignify it as a wag. One is a matter of semantics. Demonereach was built and I quote.The semantic issue arises out of the arrow of time, build a thing in the past and it exists in all time going forward.  If on the other hand you build it in the future and want it in the past then you have to build it backwards. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

The second note is about who could know of those symbols. There are two sets of characters in the books who could know. Angels and the Archive. Since the Archive contains the body of knowledge of the human race, if the symbols were used by humans she knows and understands them. And of course angels are know it all's.

A final note. If the Oblivion War is meant to wipe out all knowledge of the things that live in the prison then you have to accept that the prison will eventually need to pass out of human memory. That implies that there will be a final Warden.
Well, one could argue by building it in 5 different time periods simultaneously, he was building it both forward and backward at the same time (depending on his perspective or the perspective of anything watching).

From a physics perspective, I'd say he was building it outside the normal passage of time relative to the universe (obviously not relative to himself). A bubble of separated time, if you like. This is why he would appear to be in several points of space-time simultaneously (which of course is impossible in physics). In fact, I suspect in relation to himself, he was building the prison just the once. Kind of like being in the centre of Venn diagram made of five circles. He's in all yet also in his own space. A space only possible due to him being in it and linking the five other spaces.

There are others apart from the Archive and angels who could have known what those symbols are - gods, higher-level demons, certain faeries etc. I suspect many such powerful beings could know that sort of thing. Also, any wizards who learned Merlin's magic (or even his predecessors) could well know his stuff potentially. Harder to say though.

Is the Oblivion War meant to wipe out knowledge of what is in the prison? I might have missed that. I didn't really see the two being related myself.

I will point out that the symbols are symbols and as such part of the human lexicon.  If the Archive doesn't know them then she isn't what Jim says she is.
Well, the point of such a archetype like the Archive in the story apart from having them as an information source/dump is also that their information has holes/can be wrong. It really helps with those sucker punches that Jim never uses...

The Archive has sort of changed a bit over the series. At first she was just the repository of all human knowledge that had been gathered by her predecessors. Then she became the repository of all human knowledge ever written down (even if it were later destroyed, it was now embedded within her). First she simply used to learn things like any other human. Then she was able to learn anything that had been written by anyone, anywhere.

Of course...not all knowledge is recorded. So one enormous gap in her knowledge would be any oral knowledge. She also would not have access to information that was only in people's heads. That's a few big gaps already.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2022, 02:58:11 AM »
You probably shouldn't haul physics into it. But have fun with it.

In terms of the prison the calculus is simple.  If the idea is to remove the collective knowledge of the Old Gods and whatever else that may be a target in the Oblivion War, it can't be done as long as the prison has a human Warden. The Warden will know. Butcher has chosen a multiverse for his playground. If I were writing it, Bonea would become the Archive and at some point in time the prison would cease to exist at some point. He laid the ground for that even if it wasn't his intent when he introduced the idea of Angelic magic. He had Lash speak of the protections on the safe room at Michael's house.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2022, 03:40:45 PM »
I think the Demonreach building in 5 different Time periods was to ensure it also exists in all relevant parallel worlds, so an entity trying to tunnel out by going into the Mirror Mirror world merely tunnels into exactly the same cell in the parallel world. Hopefully his Mirror Mirror counterpart had the same idea an he’s in the original cell, if not then they need to see the Warden about prison overcrowding.

The other point maybe is that Demonreach has a failsafe which has had to be used five times throughout its history. One would be in a parallel world where the Outsider /Maeve attack in Cold Days succeeded, the others would be similar instances, blocking off those worlds.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2022, 05:50:08 PM »
How I think about it depends on the time of the day, the direction of the wind and how much sleep I've had. Currently it feels like a five point star 666 years apart which has no deep meaning other than it takes you back to the Beginnings of Rome, giver or take.

Offline Monkez

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 626
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2022, 05:55:56 PM »

  I'd say because it's siblings and perhaps itself had been on the island before, perhaps in an attempt to free it's siblings or others from jail.  It may have been when it's siblings were captured by the Warden of that time, and put in the "minimum" security prison as POWs perhaps?  And maybe just a wild guess, the so called "British Prisoner," also dates back to that time?

Well....  Shagnasty is not exactly young.  He may have "met" the original Merlin, or others like him, a long, long time ago...  :)
I always wanted to be a monk, but I never got the chants.

Offline HeWhoSucksAtWalking

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2022, 03:37:57 PM »
Perhaps Shaggy had seen Night of the Lepus, and it gave him nightmares?
Giant Rabbits are terrifying .Especially their B movie Ilk..I would give give Shaggy Boy a 1 in 10 chance against those abominations....... Unless he had carrots then that goes up to a 5.The lepus are legion!

That said : Shaggy boy is one of the coolest villains of the series. Butcher did a great job on making him Dresden's first incapacitating Boogeyman.  If Listens to Wind had fought him as soon as Shag came to Chicago that fight might have had a different outcome..on the account that the Naagloshi lose more power the longer they stay away from tribal lands