The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Could the Za Lord's Guard defeat the White Council AND KotC Ways travel?

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Conspiracy Theorist:

--- Quote from: Mira on January 03, 2022, 04:57:22 PM ---Their freedom of choice still holds though, besides if the Almighty wanted them to have a fast track though the Nevernever, they'd already have it.

--- End quote ---

The White God has to work with what is available, if however use of the Never Never became available...

It has to noted that the daughter of a former Knight and a friend to both current Knights is now the Winter Lady, and the current Winter Knight (also friends with both current Knighrs and the arbiter of appointment of a third) has been gifted Soulfire by the White God. Winter has never been so pre-disposed to allowing travel through its realm by the White God’s agents.

This may be coincidence, or it may be the White God moving in mysterious ways.

The Denarians had three members who could probably travel the NeverNever, Cassius, Tessa and Namshiels previous host. This would make sense as Nick required Harry for this task in Skin Game. Harry did for Cassius and Namshiels former host. Tessa is less likely than ever to do Nicks bidding, following the death of their daughter,  meaning the Denarian’s (at least Nick’s faction) are somewhat limited in travel options, at a time when the Knights could really open up.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 03, 2022, 02:50:42 PM ---At it’s current Power and deployment the Za Guard could take out the entire White Council if Harry ordered them to locate and undertake a coordinated ambush cutting the throat of every Wizard, with probably an initial 90% plus success rate. The Little Folk can get into places few others can and can make themselves difficult to see, and can swarm their targets. Facts the Senior Council appreciate and make them very wary of attacking Harry.

Harry has a tendency to survive impossible odds, curses, destiny etc and doesn’t need to turn up in person with the Eye of Balor to destroy Edinburgh.

And that is not knowing about the White God’s nukes, and his full control over Demonreach and it’s inhabitants.

Getting back on topic one thing Butters could ask of Mab, a way for the Knight’s to access the Never Never and travel the Ways with a clone of Harry’s crystal (which Harry should be able to make). It would allow the Knights to cover far more ground, slay the monster on the other side of the world and be back for bedtime and wouldn’t be a power up from the White God destabilising the balance between the Coins and the Swords

--- End quote ---
I think you're assuming a bit there.

Firstly, the Council as a whole isn't always at Edinburgh. They all have there own lives and places too. So Harry would have to know and find them. Secondly, all would be behind thresholds and wards (not to mention the incredibly powerful ones at Edinburgh itself). Basically, nothing short of a god gets in (including Faeries, who can get around thresholds if their intentions are benign). But not necessarily get around wards btw. Thirdly, many wizards ward their own clothing like Harry does, and some might be prepared for this. Fourthly, it only takes some cold iron to stop them outright. Fifthly, if Harry ordered such an attack it would require the consent of the Queens. They would know. And unless they felt like destroying the White Council, I doubt they would allow it. The Senior Council may be aware of his relationship with the Little Folk, and may have prepared accordingly. But some would only have been really aware of how big that has gotten as of Battle Ground, and yes it would have scared them. But I don't think it would be as easy as you suspect. The Council has faced worse threats than Harry after all, and it still stands.

I doubt Harry could even get the Eye to work for him, and even if it could it would probably kill him or severely maim him, and almost certainly corrupt him. I don't think it is yet the weapon he needs. But he might be able to give it to a being that is enslaved by him...i.e. Ethniu.

I am sure the Senior Council at least know he has the Arma Christi (the White God weapons). Information is what they do. They certainly know about his relationship with Demonreach. Although would you really say he has full control of the inhabitants? He hasn't even reviewed most of them yet...I would say even though he has the ability to summon and control one, doesn't mean he actually can pull it off. He very nearly lost to Ethniu, despite all his weapons and advantages.

Even if Mab could whip up a clone of Margaret's crystal (long-odds on that, nothing comes that free, remember that crystal is basically the sum of Margaret's knowledge of the Ways), I doubt that would be an equal trade. He merely took out a piece of steel that was restraining her, there is a limit to the balance. And I am not so sure it wouldn't destabilise the balance between the Knights of the Cross and the Knights of the Blackened Denarius. So it might actually make things worse! Besides, the way the Almighty works is that they don't need it. They literally are wherever they are meant to be. Doesn't matter if they go by plane, boat, car or Way. No, he should just take a free heal when he really needs it, either for himself or a friend. That's a pretty fair trade I think, and not much risk to him.

Conspiracy Theorist:
The Little Folk are everywhere and a wizard cannot stay hunkered up behind a threshold 24/7, they don’t need to attack just Edinburgh, that’s why an attack could take out 90% plus, not 100%. Wizards can’t use modern communications well so most wizards are not going to know they are under attack as it is happening and as Battle Ground showed the Little Folk can coordinate spectacularly. The element of surprise would be maintained for a long time during the engagement. Iron needs to get in contact with the Little Folk to harm them, so you would have to know it’s a Fae attack, have iron ready and be able to react to the speed of their attack.

Cutting throats and going for eyes deals with protective clothing, and as for the Queens, one merely needs to engineer a breach of the accords by the White Council in exactly the way Nemesis did with The White Court and the Swartalves. Easy given that the White Council are on the outs with every other Accords Member following Battle Ground.

The Four Senior Council and four Warden witnessed the Little Folks display. Three of the Wardens and Christos are dead, two other Senior Council very badly injured, leaving a non-combat specialist and Carlos, a very Junior wizard despite his position and likely to be ignored by the Merlin.

The Eye, is powered by Hate and needs a being capable of wielding it who would be subject to Harry’s control. The Titan. Easy. Harry merely releases Ethnui under a geas from his binding. Yes he has full control, I believe there is a WOJ to that effect, but they have to agree he can’t force them. Ethnui agree to taking out the White Council? Yep. The Naagloshii going to to Edinburgh en masse for an all you can eat gourmet buffet? Definitely.

The White God’s nukes, no the Senior Council do not know, they are trying to find out about the events of Skin Game, and Mab, Hades and Odin are keeping that secret. Nick knows but won’t tell, too humiliating,  Marcone didn’t know as he was surprised when Harry produced the Spear. Michael knows and is the last person to let on this secret.

The crystal is just information, and information can be duplicated, as a recorded medium the Archive has access to it. Harry would just need suitably sized gems to hand for himself to do the transcribing, I wonder where he could get three identical perfectly pure gems, preferably white, but durable say diamonds. Mab would be needed to empower the ability of a being unable to access the Never Never to do so and give safe passage. Mounting the gems on an enchanted ring which would permit this would be necessary which both Mab and Molly have done. The favour is probably the most significant one in the history of Winter, the could have lost their Queen and Lady at the same time except for Butters action when Mab’s second was holding against an attack against the Outer Gates, so yes Butters should be able to ask for anything within Mab’s power, but Mab knows Butters wouldn’t ask for  something ridiculous by nature of him being a Knight.

Lastly Harry could destroy the White Council by going public about them demonstrating his powers as a wizard and actively turning the mortal world against them. Forget an army of Little Folk, an hateful Titan, a squad of Naagloshii or the White God’s nukes, Harry can unleash something far more devasting and dreadful upon the White Council.

Larry Fowler.

I actually expect this to be a thing in the series.

Yuillegan:
That is true, the Little Folk are everywhere. Yet, the further they are from a commander, the more likely they are to forget their orders. In the same city as Harry is one thing, but all over the planet is quite another. Toot-Toot is their general, and even near Harry has trouble with orders from time to time.

Lots of people wear iron, or rather steel. Rings, bracelets, other paraphenalia are not uncommon to wizards either. But as you say, it would need to touch them. As you point out, many wizards wear warded/enchanted clothing too - which they also would have to get through. I acknowledge that some wizards caught out in the open, unprepared, would be likely to be in danger - if the Little Folk remembered to follow up on their orders.

When you say, "engineer a breach of the accords" what do you mean? I can't see the Mother's being at all involved, as they really don't do much at the local level. Titania or Mab could be involved, although only Mab enforces the Accords as they are her Accords after all. Titania, on the other hand, exists to counter Mab against humans. If Mab really did approve such a thing, Titania would likely involve herself to stop Mab. So at the very least half the Little Folk wouldn't obey such an order. The other half, the Winter-aligned half, might come into direct contention with the Summer-aligned Little Folk at this stage.

Are the White Council on the out with every member of the Accords? Where did you get that idea?

Christos may or may not be dead - his status is unconfirmed. But you forget Martha Liberty (the communications and intelligence expert, also the spirit messenger expert, on the Council) also witnessed Harry's display. She almost certainly would have informed the Merlin. Not to mention, the White Council don't necessarily need to be physically present at events to view them or learn about them. They can scry, remote view, ask spirits and other allies, and probably a number of other intelligence avenues.

Would releasing and then controlling Ethniu be easy? Considering how hard it was to put her away...I don't think so. Let alone giving her a superweapon. The WOJ states Harry could use Ethniu, not that it would be easy. Not to mention, he would have to force her to kill the Council, because why would she willingly help her jailer? Honestly, even if Harry could control the Naagloshii and were crazy enough to send them, I very much doubt they would get through the threshold and wards on Edinburgh, not to mention they lose power the further and longer they are away from their hunting ground.

I mean, we don't know whether the White Council know about the Arma Christi or not. But I don't think it's unreasonable, considering Harry whipped out two in the Battle of Chicago, not to mention the Underworld heist wasn't exactly quiet. It's not like they wouldn't know about them, this isn't the first time since Christ they have been used. They are weapons after all. Hades was just the caretaker. Do you know that Mab, Odin and Hades are keeping events secret? I don't remember anything about that myself. And why would they? They wanted the news of Skin Game to be public after all, it was return fire for Mab. Marcon may or may not have known about what Harry got, but it hardly matters. Namshiel would have known where they were anyway, and so Marcone would have been able to put 2+2 together. I guarantee that little heist was at least decades in the making. Nicodemus doesn't do things on a whim. Which means Namshiel would have been privy to some of the plan anyway. I imagine Marcone was surprised that Harry actually had the Spear/Athame with him when Harry produced it in the fight with Ethniu, but I wouldn't be so sure Marcone didn't suspect Harry had already retrieved it. It was that Harry had it with him in the moment that surprised him, I suspect.

I think you're overestimating the Archive there. The Archive knows anything written or recorded, sure. But the crystal is memory in physical form. That's not at all the same thing. Not that the Archive would care, I am sure it has plenty of it's own research and knowledge about Ways. But I would be very surprised if the Archive knew exactly what information the crystal has. I am surprised to hear you think it would be so easy to duplicate? When has any type of magic been easy, even for Harry? There are passages over and over about how hard it is to do even simple things, let alone complex magic. It's not a matter of inscribing the gem, runes are not the issue. It's the transfer of the information, the copying of it. That might literally be beyond Harry. He's not all that good at the subtle and complex stuff as it is.

I am not sure I understand where Mab is needed, or for what, when it comes to the gem...? 

The Fae work to the letter of the law, not the spirit. Which is clear from how they often get the better end of the stick. Butter's didn't save Mab's life, he literally just pulled out some iron that was paralysing her. At that stage, it wasn't killing her, least as I understood it. But even if the Fae view it the way you do, I doubt he can ask for anything he likes. Mab is only one part of Winter. He didn't save all of Winter, that would be conjecture.

I think the one thing that is clearest (sadly) from Battle Ground is even in the face of irrefutable evidence, Harry's world just ignore the supernatural or try and explain it away. Despite a god literally showing up with an army of monsters of myth, and a second army of mythical beings showing up to stop them, humanity blames "terrorism" on the Battle of Chicago. Harry could crow from the highest hill that he is a wizard and he would blend in with all the other crazies. Consider what he says at the end of Changes, words to the same effect.

At the end of the day, Harry's life is never so easy that he could simply defeat his problems so simply. If the White Council were so easy to deal with they wouldn't be around now. If Harry were able to convince people of magic so easily, he would have. But Harry's life never goes that well. Not to mention, Harry's reputation publicly (even outside the supernatural world) is mostly considered nuts and/or a dangerous criminal. He might have won the respect of some Chicagoans, but I imagine plenty will hate him just because of what he reminds them of. They will want to go back to the way things were, and will blame him for their troubles. It's often the way of things, and has happened to Harry many times over as it is.

Larry Fowler...might actually be supernatural himself. Jim has hinted at it. My bet is he is a werewolf (in the old Wolfman movie the werewolf is called Larry Talbot).

FYI - just going to split this thread as it might be easier to have the two separate topics, because I enjoy both but don't want to railroad discussion.  :)

morriswalters:

--- Quote ---The Little Folk are everywhere and a wizard cannot stay hunkered up behind a threshold 24/7, they don’t need to attack just Edinburgh, that’s why an attack could take out 90% plus, not 100%. Wizards can’t use modern communications well so most wizards are not going to know they are under attack as it is happening and as Battle Ground showed the Little Folk can coordinate spectacularly. The element of surprise would be maintained for a long time during the engagement. Iron needs to get in contact with the Little Folk to harm them, so you would have to know it’s a Fae attack, have iron ready and be able to react to the speed of their attack.

--- End quote ---
Really?

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