The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Ages of Characters

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Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 08, 2022, 04:00:52 PM ---Don’t Ghouls use Ancient Sumerian?

We have seen that characters may have had many names and histories, we have been told Dracula and Dracula are actually older and are several ancient monsters.

The Etruscan language for the White Court May be valid depending on what they were BEFORE they were the White Court, and Etruscan was the language adopted as that of the hosts of the oldest living members, the heads of the three families. White Court grow up among mortals before their hunger becomes dominant, if so they may scions of for example Etruscan deities, basically Greco-Roman deities under another name.

Notably there is a minor Etruscan deity called Rath, associated with the Etruscan version of Apollo. What if that is Lord Raith,  a child or grandchild of Apollo, with a mortal, not a god or even an immortal, but born with the first Hunger? All other White Court Vampires would descend from him, eventually creating other families as their interests diverged.

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Ghouls do use ancient Sumerian. But I don't get the question. Is anyone claiming otherwise?

Yes indeed, Drakul and Dracula and Odin and likely several others keep changing their identities (likely every Cycle based on what Eb said about Odin being called Vadderung "this time around"). I wonder who else has changed their identity since? But while many beings have multiple identities, only a few like Drakul and Odin seem to diminish themselves in order to have more influence in the game. Which is intriguing.

I really like your White Court origin theory. Sadly, Jim says he hasn't thought much about their origins so I don't know that it's as complex as that. I think he picked Raith because of the word Wraith, which means a ghostly apparition seen just before or after someone dies. I think it's a scary monster word he picked, nothing more to it. It seems he picked Etruscan because he wanted them to be old, but nothing more.

Here's something that the previous site manage and owner of these boards, the guy who built the RPG and also happens to be one of Jim's old friends said:

--- Quote ---As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim’s character) and Mitre (mine) all over ’em.
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Which tells you how long Jim might have been thinking about the White Court. My guess is that the White Court are tied to Outsiders (like all the Vampires), specifically in their origins. No idea how though. Chaosians, after all, are similar to Outsiders in many odd respects.

For what it's worth, I think I like your origin better though.  :)

Conspiracy Theorist:
Jim lies.... sometimes i’m Not Going To Tell You Gives too much away.

He has researched it, I will bet he has.

Perhaps the first Whamp was created by a Nemesis infected descendent of Apollo, and it was Rath/Raith.

Yuillegan:
He does lie, and maybe he lied when he said he hadn't given much thought to the origins of the White Court. I don't know.

I do know that he wasn't always as deep a researcher in the beginning of his series, but he may have improved over time. And he may well have done further research since White Night and may retroactively decide on their origins, almost certainly since being asked about it in the interview. Which is a round about way of saying even if when he first made the White Court he didn't have those origins, he may well come up with something very close to your theory. He has done such things several times now, so it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

If that works for you, I think that's a good as theory as any. As I said, I like the Apollo connection. They suit the idea of the beautiful Sun deity, and maybe that's why the Sun doesn't affect them.

Con:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---Fair enough, I get you had to work with your measuring system. "Before" isn't a very precise measurement, despite the accuracy of it. I don't know that the gods "needed" mortal worship though, because humans are incredibly new compared to the universe. My guess is that they just really like the options worship gave them i.e. being able to change. Probably better to think of it less about when the being "first" existed and more of a first contact situation e.g. the being that became known as Zeus first appears to mortals (10 000 B.C.).
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That would probably be Dyeus of the Proto-Indo-European mythology. More of a typical Primorial personification of sky. Less throwing around lightning defeating titans and monsters.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---It certainly is to mortals, which is important. As above, it's less of when those beings are "born" (the term might not apply to some beings, as in a sense they may have always existed) but more of when they first appear to mortals, or first attack the universe they happen to be invading etc.

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first appear to mortals is an interesting concept. It's obvious the Gods got some power or benefits from mortals worshipping them.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---Absolutely, although I got the impression not all of those demons were tied to any mythology per se, some being so old and terrible that humanity doesn't even remember them (due to Oblivion War). But there are other demons and monsters that humanity does remember associated with Creation myths like Ymir in Norse mythology or Tiamat in Babylonian/Summerian mythology. And they were very scary beings, and definitely would be like those other gods that pre-date Creation.
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Agreed. It fits with the Eldritch and Cthuhlu nature of Old Ones

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---
 Ethniu is an order of magnitude above Mab, which was how Harry once described the Mothers. Not that I necessarily rate them at the same level (although Ethniu was angry when she saw Mother Winter's walking stick and called it an "adult's tool"). Ethniu's familiarity with Angels and Odin also suggest she is one of those older beings...but I understand your hesitancy. My guess, she is "younger" than some but older than others. By which I mean, how do you define who is older if both beings exist before the invention of cause and effect, of before and after?
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It might be less about time and more about maturity. Kids mature at different ages depending on their life experiences. Some people act younger then they really are some older. It's possible Ethniu being locked up for an extended period of time stunted her maturity.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---Not entirely sure, but Jim's answer about why the universe changed so much and how it affected the gods memories of things seems to imply he rebelled early on. As in, not long after Creation. I always assumed that is would be to do with humans myself, and perhaps it was, but technically he first rebels in the bible because he wants God's throne. Nothing to do with humans. It's a far newer idea that Lucifer resented humanity. Supernatural (the TV show) went with that idea, the one your talking about. But it isn't necessarily true to the original story, and Jim seems to be suggesting it was much earlier than humanity being around. My guess now is the argument might be less about Free Will, and far more about determinism and things like cause and effect. Maybe he misses the chaos of before Creation, then again he apparently does want Creation to be around. Maybe he just doesn't want to be ruled by TWG. That's fairly simple, if you ask me.
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Isn't there a WOJ Lucifer and God are just having one big argument over the nature of man? Which btw is a very Islamic take on Abrahamic religions iirc.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---You've lost me a bit here. Are you saying that before people these beings like gods etc were not bound as much by time and such things? Because I think time came around as soon as the universe got done being made. Unless you're suggesting that Creation only happened right before mortal came around, and the universe is only 10,000 years old? Because I think Sue might argue with that.
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I'm saying more the Primordial Gods and beings got some benefit from Mortal worship and understanding. My theory is that humans beliefs and association of Gods allowed them to create direct vessels such as bodies to interact with mortals and the world. Primordial and Creation Gods originally were just personifications of certain elements humans couldn't understand except through creative means. Take Dyeus who evolved into Zeus. Mortal beliefs gave them a framework for direct action of their power, even as it limited said power. Probably originally not a lot at first.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM --- They do seem to be servitors more than anything. Guardians, managers, but also builders. I think Dragons were just as limited, power has purpose after all. That being said...who said the gods were unable to act directly. All those myths in ancient times. It's only recently they backed off I think, by which I think Hastings probably had something to do with it, or perhaps a bit earlier.
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Ferrovax was limited in how he could help in Battle Ground because he was such a power his form would crack reality which would have just helped Ethniu. Odin became Vadderung and mortal so that he could continue acting directly in mortal affairs. Things like that suggest their power is limited outside of their purpose.
 

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---Ah yes, but Jim has seemingly (if a bit messily) fixed the conflict. I like the theory about the Black Plague. Yes, I think it's no accident Nicodemus and Drakul operate similarly. I think they are both big players in this cycle, and have been playing for a long while (although Drakul a lot longer). If you've ever read "A Night in the Lonesome October by Roger Zelazny (one of Jim's favourite authors), you can see Drakul's inspiration, and some inspiration for the Cycle. Although, fair warning it probably will spoil some things. Real question is why the Dracula and Nicodemus would work together? Drakul I suspect wouldn't necessarily be friends with him. Dracula perhaps made his own deal with the devil. But Drakul himself is very much old as humans, and the being that got trapped is almost certainly older than people. It's some sort of spirit whether it's a dragon or demon or whatever.
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Dracula created Black Court as a teenage rebellion against Daddy Drakul. If Nicodemus was afrenemy rival he'd get a kick out of using his enemies son as a tool while preparing an apocalypse like the Black Plague/Court.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 08, 2022, 07:20:15 AM ---Yeah I saw that WOJ. It seems he never thought too much about it and therefore has made a bit of a problem for himself. I wish he would have a good think and come up with something better. But I seem to remember an old WOJ about Lord Raith being actually older than Nicodemus, however that was possible. But I can't find it offhand, so for now we have to take it as he isn't that old. Does everyone use Latin? Just thought it was the White Council? I think Jim put it in to make them mysterious but not much more than that.

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Well at the time after Etrsucans were defeated Latin and Greek were the main 'civilised' languages for a thousand years or more. White Court using Etruscan throughout that time would be somewhat of a secret language code for their club.

@Conspiracy Theorist I like the idea of Michael becoming Santa, but I think his reward by God might curtail that. He has sincere belief that he will go to Heaven and be with his family for eternity.

As for Apollo being the father of the Raith Court. I would go with Dionysus or Pan or Dis one of the other Personifications of human emotions. Raith feed on the negative aspects of humanity and are repelled by the virtues.

Personally I like the idea that the Gaul's worshipped the Sun so much because Rome was ruled by Vampires, but thats a bit Iron Druid/alt universe for this particular Urban Fantasy series/timeline.

Hopefully we get some sort of answer or hint during 12 months.

Conspiracy Theorist:
Michael doesn’t have to be Santa forever, Charity is a good bit younger than Michael and could live 2-3 decades longer than Michael. The Kringle Mantle would likely stay with Michael until the first Halloween following Charity’s death, unless Charity asks Michael to look over the Children/grandchildren for a bit. As Kringle his disabilities would be nullified.

Michael can transfer the Mantle and die peacefully of Old Age to get his reward in heaven with Charity. Perhaps he will transfer it to one of his Children, young Harry perhaps?

A real happy ending for Michael.

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