The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

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Ed0517:
I think all the Denarians are pre-planet. The Fall was before such. If the Dragons were meant to help shape - well, they'd be made before the planet, assuming a Creation myth type formation, or could even have been slightly after the ball starts to form if be are in Big Bang style. No need for them until the crust starts to form.

Demonreach would have been after planet formation. The genius Loci from that time, but possibly magically enhanced to sentience later

If Mab the individual now in the mantle rode with the Conqueror - it's under a thousand years from Hastings. The mantle is older. The former mortal is not.

I don't think Rashid is older than Mai. I think he may have timeskipped to fight the Mad Arab. I'd say more like 250-300. Slightly less than the Merlin.

Molly is in her late 20s/early 30s. Older than Mister. IIRC Jim said "ordinary cat" He'd be dead by now at that age.

Maggie is likely slightly older than Mouse. Probably conceived during Death Masks. Maybe a year.

Add Ivy as older than Maggie, younger than Mister? Early/mid teens?

Conspiracy Theorist:
Mister is 18 as at Christmas Eve, yeah “just a cat” I have an entire conspiracy theory that he is a Malk Changeling who is currently deciding to be “Just a cat”, planted as a spy by Lea.

The Conspiracy theory on Michael inheriting the Kringle Mantle really firmed up over Christmas Eve/The good People where the Winter Lady says Michael taught her how to do Christmas right. He does the same with the Winter Knight.

In addition he has Uriel in common with Vadderung, they do lunch once a year, I suspect the 6 December, St Nicholas day.

Vadderung as Odin and Beowulf is a Dragonslayer, St Nicholas is reported to have banished a dragon as a miracle. The only other known Dragonslayer in the Dresdenverse is Michael.

Michael as a warrior could acceptably lead the Wild Hunt (see how Winter lionised Butters in the Good People).

He (together with Father Forthill) is as close to a living saint we have seen in the Dresdenverse.

As a knight he dressed in a white and red cloak.

The congruency between the Kringle Mantle and Michael is actually greater than that between Molly and Winter Lady Mantle, and Mab had been setting her up for years as a candidate for that Mantle, as I suspect  has Mab and Uriel for Michael, it’s why he is being kept safe by both angels and Fae. Mab wouldn’t allow Winter resources to be used to protect the mortal father of the Winter Lady without expecting something out of it, just like Lea helping Molly.

Michael is often described as a tall imposing figure over 6 feet tall and broad with a salt and pepper beard. Physical characteristics he shares with Kringle.

Michael has previously hosted the grace of an Archangel, a Mantle wouldn’t be a problem.

Kringle is the closest to a Father Figure that exists in Mab’s Court, he is the current Winter Lady’s actual father.

Odin is destined to die at Ragnarok, but whilst Harry May inherit some of Odin power and position, I think Michael will get Kringle.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Con on January 06, 2022, 06:32:16 AM ---Fair enough that WOJ did occur to me at some point, but I was doing things as linearly as possible as for Creation several billion years before the world coalesced into a planet, let alone life, let alone dinosaurs. Let alone the humans whom the Gods needed for worship. So if said Gods were their for Creation, they would still need to be somehow present for humans. Humans are for the most part linear, so as Humans understood them this was as linear as I could make them.

--- End quote ---
Fair enough, I get you had to work with your measuring system. "Before" isn't a very precise measurement, despite the accuracy of it. I don't know that the gods "needed" mortal worship though, because humans are incredibly new compared to the universe. My guess is that they just really like the options worship gave them i.e. being able to change. Probably better to think of it less about when the being "first" existed and more of a first contact situation e.g. the being that became known as Zeus first appears to mortals (10 000 B.C.).


--- Quote ---Right which also suggests time as a factor as measurable by one moment to the next. Rashid says most of the time the Outer Gates could be quite peaceful, and other things like 'most years it wouldn't matter. Admittedly he also says 'Always in danger'. All of those are still time measurements. I'm not disagreeing with you exactly just offering another perspective. Human linear as it is
--- End quote ---
It certainly is to mortals, which is important. As above, it's less of when those beings are "born" (the term might not apply to some beings, as in a sense they may have always existed) but more of when they first appear to mortals, or first attack the universe they happen to be invading etc.


--- Quote ---Said demons would seem to have been confirmed by Thomas and the nature of the Oblivion War. Which again depends on Human knowledge or memory of them within a certain time frame of soceity.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely, although I got the impression not all of those demons were tied to any mythology per se, some being so old and terrible that humanity doesn't even remember them (due to Oblivion War). But there are other demons and monsters that humanity does remember associated with Creation myths like Ymir in Norse mythology or Tiamat in Babylonian/Summerian mythology. And they were very scary beings, and definitely would be like those other gods that pre-date Creation.
 

--- Quote ---Odin probably. Ethniu I'm not convinced. Hades-I just don't see him being at Creation. My best guess is Underworld was created to imprison Titans, Demons, Old Gods. (Although Greek Myths that was more Tartarus who himself was a bit more Primordial/Titan/Personification). Then they gave the most Responsible Gods or Exiled the most Scarey ones as Keepers of the Underworld when they needed a place for human souls to go.

--- End quote ---
Ethniu is an order of magnitude above Mab, which was how Harry once described the Mothers. Not that I necessarily rate them at the same level (although Ethniu was angry when she saw Mother Winter's walking stick and called it an "adult's tool"). Ethniu's familiarity with Angels and Odin also suggest she is one of those older beings...but I understand your hesitancy. My guess, she is "younger" than some but older than others. By which I mean, how do you define who is older if both beings exist before the invention of cause and effect, of before and after?


--- Quote ---Fair enough but at what point did Lucifer and Denarians rebel. Seems to me once Humans were created and given Free Will. Lucifer didn't like the new adopted step children, or wanted Free Will. Denarians similar.

--- End quote ---
Not entirely sure, but Jim's answer about why the universe changed so much and how it affected the gods memories of things seems to imply he rebelled early on. As in, not long after Creation. I always assumed that is would be to do with humans myself, and perhaps it was, but technically he first rebels in the bible because he wants God's throne. Nothing to do with humans. It's a far newer idea that Lucifer resented humanity. Supernatural (the TV show) went with that idea, the one your talking about. But it isn't necessarily true to the original story, and Jim seems to be suggesting it was much earlier than humanity being around. My guess now is the argument might be less about Free Will, and far more about determinism and things like cause and effect. Maybe he misses the chaos of before Creation, then again he apparently does want Creation to be around. Maybe he just doesn't want to be ruled by TWG. That's fairly simple, if you ask me.


--- Quote ---'As old as there were people'. Is partially my argument all these beings needed people to anchor them somehow, maybe not give them life, but give them a framework of some kind. Time included.
--- End quote ---
You've lost me a bit here. Are you saying that before people these beings like gods etc were not bound as much by time and such things? Because I think time came around as soon as the universe got done being made. Unless you're suggesting that Creation only happened right before mortal came around, and the universe is only 10,000 years old? Because I think Sue might argue with that.
 

--- Quote ---Dragons seem to have been created to enact direct physical change on the planet and reality. I can see why that offended or pissed off all of the Gods who were constrained or couldn't act as directly at the time.
--- End quote ---
They do seem to be servitors more than anything. Guardians, managers, but also builders. I think Dragons were just as limited, power has purpose after all. That being said...who said the gods were unable to act directly. All those myths in ancient times. It's only recently they backed off I think, by which I think Hastings probably had something to do with it, or perhaps a bit earlier.


--- Quote ---Conflicting sources about origin of Black Court. Drakul seemed to have preferred Nicodemus's method of a handful of effective subordinates. Dracula turned them into a Plague. My WAG is the Black Plague helped launched by the Denarians was a zombie apocalypse of Black Court. 666 also seems to indicate confluence of events time being one of them.
--- End quote ---
Ah yes, but Jim has seemingly (if a bit messily) fixed the conflict. I like the theory about the Black Plague. Yes, I think it's no accident Nicodemus and Drakul operate similarly. I think they are both big players in this cycle, and have been playing for a long while (although Drakul a lot longer). If you've ever read "A Night in the Lonesome October by Roger Zelazny (one of Jim's favourite authors), you can see Drakul's inspiration, and some inspiration for the Cycle. Although, fair warning it probably will spoil some things. Real question is why the Dracula and Nicodemus would work together? Drakul I suspect wouldn't necessarily be friends with him. Dracula perhaps made his own deal with the devil. But Drakul himself is very much old as humans, and the being that got trapped is almost certainly older than people. It's some sort of spirit whether it's a dragon or demon or whatever.


--- Quote ---Etruscans were 900s BC till Roman Kingdom became Roman Republic in 500s BC, but a few things. 1. WOJ said 2000 not closer to 3000. 2. WOJ recently is he hasn't thought too much about the origins of the White Court so Etruscans as a measurement may not be feasible. 3. Possible White Court did it as a petty cats paw against everyone using Latin.
--- End quote ---
Yeah I saw that WOJ. It seems he never thought too much about it and therefore has made a bit of a problem for himself. I wish he would have a good think and come up with something better. But I seem to remember an old WOJ about Lord Raith being actually older than Nicodemus, however that was possible. But I can't find it offhand, so for now we have to take it as he isn't that old. Does everyone use Latin? Just thought it was the White Council? I think Jim put it in to make them mysterious but not much more than that.

Conspiracy Theorist:
Don’t Ghouls use Ancient Sumerian?

We have seen that characters may have had many names and histories, we have been told Dracula and Dracula are actually older and are several ancient monsters.

The Etruscan language for the White Court May be valid depending on what they were BEFORE they were the White Court, and Etruscan was the language adopted as that of the hosts of the oldest living members, the heads of the three families. White Court grow up among mortals before their hunger becomes dominant, if so they may scions of for example Etruscan deities, basically Greco-Roman deities under another name.

Notably there is a minor Etruscan deity called Rath, associated with the Etruscan version of Apollo. What if that is Lord Raith,  a child or grandchild of Apollo, with a mortal, not a god or even an immortal, but born with the first Hunger? All other White Court Vampires would descend from him, eventually creating other families as their interests diverged.

BrainFireBob:

--- Quote from: Con on January 07, 2022, 09:27:53 AM ---Corrected thanks. Can't believe I forgot about that.Ah true I had him at the Crusades.
Agreed. :)
Actually she denied that, jokingly referring to him as saying. 'He does like us to call him "Daddy"

See the problem? Different theories from the same information.
Nice. What's the theory?

--- End quote ---

Possible to cross the pole north-south after the last ice age. Ice in Norway/Russia, ice in Canada.

River is explicit that they were fleeing the new warrior culture Odin started. That dates it post Ice Age. Could be done by magic furry beings. Food and the duration of the journey on the ice sheet is your major problem in terms of possibility.

Regarding Gard: In the Helot short story, she reveals herself as a Scion of the Geat. In the main series, she stipulates that "we"- the Valkyries- aren't all Odin's daughters, but he likes being called Daddy.

Possibly an error, possible some of them are Odin's daughters.

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