The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

The Gods of Pro Wrestling

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Conspiracy Theorist:
It’s use of their intrinsic power in most cases Ethnui would have hidden in the Never Never, crossing over itself not enough to damage reality, but her using the Eye did.

Note that Sanya was already in Chicago before Ethnui, the White God had four active agents in the two knights, Odin and a wizard both granted Soulfire, and the Wizard had an entire armoury of White God Nukes at his disposal. Ethnui’s incursion was known and dealt with by the White God. Even Marcone/Namshiel’s presence may have been counted upon he certainly ended up working for the White God’s purpose

The problem trying to map godhood onto real life figures is that they may object, so Jim is unlikely to use real life people, but there are plenty of flash in the pan celebrity types such as a winner of American Idol from a few years ago, that guy who made that hilarious internet meme that was all the rage last year, that college football player of promise who never made it in the pro leagues. They just keep coming back under a new identity, doing the same things. No one can quite remember them properly but everybody knows they were big at one time, has-beens and neverwas’

Becoming too big a celebrity might mean attracting the White God’s attention, like Ethnui did. You get your worship for a time under one guise and then drop into obscurity or fake your death or an injury and move onto the next scheme. That sounds exactly like what Thor is doing.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on January 02, 2022, 01:33:49 AM ---Obviously Elon Musk is one of them. He has his own cult and everything.  But I digress.

I didn't see any indication that the Titan was in anyway special. Certainly not in any reality bending way. I suspect the Mothers stay where they are because if they don't they become blind to what is happening in other  timelines.

--- End quote ---
If I had to guess, he would be Zeus. Obsessed with electricity and the heavens, likes to be the most powerful, very dramatic, always chasing different women etc.

Perhaps have another look at Ethniu's entrance scene in Peace Talks, specifically when she enters the room.


--- Quote ---There was, around her, a humming throb of energy unlike anything I had ever sensed before, a power so ancient and terrible that the world had forgotten its like. That power demanded my respect, my obedience, my adoration, my abject terror, and suddenly I knew what was happening.
 I was standing in the presence of a goddess.
 I could barely breathe.
 I couldn’t have moved if I’d wanted to.
 A moan went through the room, and I realized with a bit of alarm that one of the voices moaning was mine.
 Some part of me noted that Vadderung and Ferrovax had both come to their feet, fists clenched—and they were not looking at each other any longer. Both stared hard at the woman.
 The goddess swept her single-eyed gaze around the room, tracking from face to face. She gave the Winter Lady a look of pure contempt and delivered exactly the same expression to the rest of the gathered Accorded nations.
 Her voice …
 Oh God.
 Her voice was sex and chocolate and hot soup and a bath on a cold, rainy night. It was a voice that promised things, that you could find yourself listening to with absolute intensity. It filled the room as if she’d been using a PA system, even though she wasn’t.

--- End quote ---
A few things there. Harry has been in the presence of very powerful beings, including Ferrovax and the Mothers and Uriel before. He describes Ethniu's presence as unlike anything he had felt before. Now let's assume that Uriel filters the majority of his power so that a mortal like Dresden is protected. And for the Mothers, let's say they were both in Faerie when Harry met them and there was a lot going on and perhaps Harry shielded his senses a bit knowing what he was about to go near.

Ferrovax clearly uses an avatar or aspect so as to not cause too much damage, he has said so himself and others have confirmed this both in the books and Jim in interviews. But Dresden did feel a fraction of Ferro's power, at least once. He has felt Vadderung's, the Erlking's, Titania's and Mab's. The latter two when viewed with the Sight nearly drove him mad, and while that was in an in-between Never never place it still was partially in the mortal plane too (probably part of why things can change in those kind of battlefields as opposed to Faerie itself).

Mab's voice for several books (particularly Small Favor) is so powerful it hurts Dresden to even hear it and causes his ears and eyes to bleed. Her voice is described as being an extension of her power.

Now look at Ethniu, so strong in power that mortals and immortals alike have trouble dealing with her mere presence. Power that doesn't come to Earth regularly, to the point that most had forgotten it. Her voice is so strong instead of causing pain and death, it a causes Harry's will to have trouble functioning properly.

I should point out that Ethniu claims in this very scene to have been huddling in the seas, so perhaps not the Never Never. But water is probably as good a cover as any.

The Mother's don't stay where they are because of limiting their Sight, not in my estimation. It doesn't limit Uriel, and they are peers. My guess is it's about limiting potential damage to an area (read: local reality). I got the impression Mother Winter can't move without her "walking stick". There might have been more reasons than gaining a powerful tool when the White Council "acquired" the Blackstaff. Perhaps it's better if Mother Winter stays in her cottage, for all of us. That being said, the Paranet Papers imply she was/is Baba Yaga (and so does Jim in a Q&A) which suggests she has moved around before.


--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 02, 2022, 02:02:44 AM ---It’s use of their intrinsic power in most cases Ethnui would have hidden in the Never Never, crossing over itself not enough to damage reality, but her using the Eye did.

Note that Sanya was already in Chicago before Ethnui, the White God had four active agents in the two knights, Odin and a wizard both granted Soulfire, and the Wizard had an entire armoury of White God Nukes at his disposal. Ethnui’s incursion was known and dealt with by the White God. Even Marcone/Namshiel’s presence may have been counted upon he certainly ended up working for the White God’s purpose

The problem trying to map godhood onto real life figures is that they may object, so Jim is unlikely to use real life people, but there are plenty of flash in the pan celebrity types such as a winner of American Idol from a few years ago, that guy who made that hilarious internet meme that was all the rage last year, that college football player of promise who never made it in the pro leagues. They just keep coming back under a new identity, doing the same things. No one can quite remember them properly but everybody knows they were big at one time, has-beens and neverwas’

Becoming too big a celebrity might mean attracting the White God’s attention, like Ethnui did. You get your worship for a time under one guise and then drop into obscurity or fake your death or an injury and move onto the next scheme. That sounds exactly like what Thor is doing.

--- End quote ---
To be honest, crossing over for ANY being so far hasn't damaged reality. Uriel walks around fine. He Who Walks Behind is considered a peer, and had no trouble. It isn't like Ferrovax crushes everything around him, and he doesn't rank anywhere near as high as the other two. So it isn't so much a matter of being in the mortal plane so much as a matter of how much energy they are unleashing.

Which as you point out, the use of the Eye of Balor was enough energy to threaten a collapse of local reality. But these beings, by their mere presence, warp reality to the point it starts to conform to their design. Even Mab and Titania do, to a lesser extent. Hell, even Harry does a bit if you think about it and look at things.

Which is the point. It's clear that it's about will power. Jim even said long ago, that if a being had enough magic and enough will they could rewrite reality to their design.

I think it is clear Heaven has a hand in things, but then again they have a hand in everything. They constantly claim non-interference but the opposite is clearly true. It's a matter of nuance, of degree. Heaven might not have an Angel go and burn a city down or engage in kickboxing with a forgotten god, but it's clear they do act through their Knights and other champions (e.g. Harry). Likely this is to preserve reality, because as hinted at by Ferrovax (and by Vadderung) the danger of engaging in flat-out combat with multiple heavyweight magical beings is beyond what reality can take. And Vadderung seems to hint that this is part of the reason he is more mortal than he used to be, so he can still engage. He also hints that the ultimate danger isn't so much the collapse of reality, but the ever-present danger of Outsiders. Hell, the Sidhe Courts use mortal Knights to deal with mortal affairs so they can still influence things. And yes, there are restrictions on the Courts from interfering with mortals who are not involved with them first, but all the rules seem to be about protecting reality.

Marcone and Namshiel likely represented other teams than Heaven (even if they did end up aiding Heaven anyway). Namshiel seems to be playing off multiple teams as well.

I agree about the problem of using real people, and I would be surprised if he used any at all. Jim is very respectful and doesn't take those sort of risks. I agree, a sort of vague take probably would work best. Allusions and allegories (e.g. "a wealthy tech mogul" or "a young teen famous for internet videos" or "the world's biggest popstar"). It doesn't have to go 1-for-1 in our world either. It's a fictional universe after all.

K.L.O.E.:
I hadn't considered how blatant Heaven and Hell were in interfering during the Battle of Chicago. I'm sure part of what allowed Ethniu to fully manifest was the Titanic Bronze armour.

I think we've missed in this discussion is the difference between a parasocial fandom relationship and worship or in other words the relationship between a god and their worshippers. To paraphrase Ian Cameron Esselmont in Orb Sceptre Throne "Ascendancy (a lesser form of Godhood in the Malazan world) is a constant battle between what your worshippers want and what you want". A parasocial relationship is a one way thing, worship isn't. As discussed the largest religious groups in Chicago are Monotheistic incarnations of the White God, worshippers were under threat so the White God intervened in a pretty dramatic fashion.

There are also limits to standard celebrity, it's incredibly difficult to control the narrative around yourself in the modern celebrity ecosystem and what are gods if not narratives given power and flesh? Someone mentioned the college athlete who doesn't win the big one and if a god were to keep adopting that guise they would become the god of close but no cigar.

Which brings me back to the beautiful art of pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is stunts tied together by a story and you can reuse the same narratives over and over again almost like telling a myth. For a god who is a pro wrestler (and I'm betting Thor will have crossed over to pro wrestling like so many football players before him) you can use your control of the narrative to maintain your domain and when you are prayed too by your devotees you can offer something back. Imagine for a second you're the underdog in a competition, you know you should lose but refuse to. Now praying to Heath Slater (or whatever memetic loser you want to pick) isn't going to help much, while praying to a god inspired by Rey Mysterio or Bryan Danielson may get you somewhere.

As for Elon if he is a god I'd speculate he's Mammon or someone like that. He didn't invent squat and really pursues some counterintuitive goals in the name of greed.

Yuillegan:
I agree, I do think the Titanic Bronze armour was more than just protection. I think it was a focus of her power. But the disadvantage is that it made her less agile too, she couldn't be in multiple places at once and therefore escape her doom. There's a hint when the light of the Angel in Butter's sword makes her armour look slow and cumbersome, yet physically speaking Ethniu isn't at all slow or awkward. So my guess is that it implies a metaphysical slowness.

Great points about the differences between celebrity worship and religious worship.

And I hadn't considered that angle about pro wrestling. It's a good point. Stories are what gods thrive on, after all. But that isn't the only medium either, a bit more diversity might be interesting, at least to me. But it's a good point to bring up.

I was only really joking about Elon. Not that I would want to meet Zeus any more than Mammon. Both are pretty dangerous to mortals.

Conspiracy Theorist:
Elon Musk if anything is the Golden Calf, a false god, merely a graven image.

The story telling of pro wrestling is exactly the same as any reality tv show except more hitting each other with chairs. Or perhaps less?. God’s thrive on belief, not stories, stories are used to engender belief. A god is merely an immortal with a good writing team behind them. Belief is probably manna from the point of view of a god whether it is celebrity or religious worship, I suspect many a pantheon got its start by being the reality shows of their era. Forget the Kardashians, they have nothing on the Olympians. This isn’t like Bob having trouble with faith based power, these beings are considerably more powerful if not near omnipotent and omnipresent and therefore likely to be the ultimate omnivores in relation to belief.

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