Author Topic: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?  (Read 8088 times)

Offline SerScot

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That seems like a perfectly rational thing to do.  Was she punishing herself for acceding to Harry’s request?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2021, 08:11:34 PM »
That seems like a perfectly rational thing to do.  Was she punishing herself for acceding to Harry’s request?
It could also be a quick death.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2021, 09:45:15 PM »
He threw Molly under the bus.  He broke trust.  Why would she do that given what he did? Uriel spells it out.
Quote from: Uriel to Harry
“It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.” “Yeah,” I croaked. “I’m starting to realize that. Too late to do any good. But I get it.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2021, 11:05:56 PM »
He threw Molly under the bus.  He broke trust.  Why would she do that given what he did? Uriel spells it out.

So… she hurt herself to punish Harry?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2021, 12:45:18 AM »
So… she hurt herself to punish Harry?
Harry preaches at her in Turn Coat about just this thing. Under pressure he asks her to do just what he told her she shouldn't do. This is the very reason she was under the Doom.  If a friend or a mentor does that to you, do you trust them?
Quote from: Turn Coat
I stared at her for a minute. Then I said, in a very quiet voice, “I always know when I’m being tempted to do something very, very wrong. I start sentences with phrases like, ‘I would never, ever do this—but.’ Or ‘I know this is wrong but.’ It’s the but that tips you off.”
Do a really deep dive into Ghost Story because this is exactly the point.  The whole book is about the chickens coming home to roost for Harry's bad choices for Molly.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2021, 01:01:47 AM »
Harry preaches at her in Turn Coat about just this thing. Under pressure he asks her to do just what he told her she shouldn't do. This is the very reason she was under the Doom.  If a friend or a mentor does that to you, do you trust them?Do a really deep dive into Ghost Story because this is exactly the point.  The whole book is about the chickens coming home to roost for Harry's bad choices for Molly.

I just finished a re-read of GS today.  I do get your point.  However, Molly has agency.  She could, probably should have, refused Harry’s request.  Why didn’t she attempt to take care of herself when Harry died?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2021, 01:38:21 AM »
I just finished a re-read of GS today.  I do get your point.  However, Molly has agency.  She could, probably should have, refused Harry’s request. 
Probably but her choice to trust and help her mentor was totally understandable. Harry got a push from the fallen but it was not like his choice was that strange for Harry either.
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Why didn’t she attempt to take care of herself when Harry died?
She did. Maybe she could have done better but she was a warlock on the run and there was nothing she could have done about that.

She probably overestimated the effort the white council would put into it but that was understandable too and you want to err on the safe side in these situations.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2021, 01:40:43 AM »
Mab states it in Cold Days when she tells Harry...
Quote
“Did she choose to be born with her gift for the Art? Did she choose to become someone so sensitive that she can hardly remain in a crowded room? I did not do that to her—you did.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 511). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2021, 03:03:16 AM »
Harry preaches at her in Turn Coat about just this thing. Under pressure he asks her to do just what he told her she shouldn't do. This is the very reason she was under the Doom.  If a friend or a mentor does that to you, do you trust them?

Technically, his consent in asking for her to do the memory tampering for him makes all the difference.

But I don't find it odd in the slightest that she'd choose not to take her chances with beheading on the prospect that any of Harry's friends would either take her on without wanting a soulgaze before staking their own lives on her rehabilitation, would not notice her feelings of guilt and shame in said soulgaze, or would accept what she'd done once they figured out the specifics. What she did doesn't have to be illegal in and of itself to kill her, it just has to anger or horrify the people she would be asking to intercede in the suspended death sentence she was already under and cause them to turn their backs on her.

On top of that, Lea had plans to train Molly in her own direction. It's highly likely she would have been advising Molly of every reason not to go to the Council that she didn't think of on her own. Lea might even have been actively disrupting any any council allies who looked for her with the intent to step in for Harry - she could rationalize that as protecting Molly from them finding out what she did and turning on her for it.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2021, 06:05:04 AM »
Even worse. Going to Eb or Listen to Wind was never a suggestion to be taken seriously. Even trying to find them was too dangerous. It is not that she could just visit Edinburgh or knew where they lived.

Harry also did not contact them to ask what was possible in case he died.

The whole suggestion was much like what Nicodemus said to his daughter before he killed her. It was empty words to make Molly and Harry go through with it.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2021, 12:04:09 PM »



   At the end of Changes, Molly was physically hurt, but still "clean" as far as the Council goes. Remember at the end of Turn Coat,Morgan says he said nothing about her backsliding to the Council. Would Luccio even be believed if she did decide to finger Molly because of all the psychological damage done to her by Peabody's ink. So yeah, she could have gone to Eb or Listens,especially if she had Michael by her side when she did it. You could make a whole pig out of all the bacon he has saved for the Council during the war with the Red Court and beyond. Also she could have refused Harry's request to assist him in the first place. Everyone seems to want to treat Molly like she was some victim.  She was not, as of Changes she was over eighteen, so technically an adult, and even as a young kid she has always rebelled and had a mind of her own.  It was thirteen year old Molly who suggested to Harry as she slipped out of her Catholic School uniform to "tie Susan up first" so he could have sex with her without being eaten in Death Masks.  Molly was never some weak willed innocent, actually she is very much a chip off of her mother's block.  Both have talent, both rebelled early and got themselves into trouble, both were saved by a shinning knight..  But there it ends because while Charity took the hint when a Holy Knight saved her and let her talent fade, Molly's knight was a wizard.   So why didn't Molly go to Eb or Listens? Because she had her own ideas and because when it was time for a wizard to step up to take the Doom with her, the only one willing was Harry, and he was dead as far as she knew.  She was also there at the end of Turn Coat, she knows what happened to Morgan, that he was innocent yet the Council wanted him convicted for political reasons.. So that was incentive enough for her not to trust anyone on the Council.  Where was Carlos when all of this went down?  He told Harry later I think that he chose to look the other way when she was the Rag Lady, but at the same time he could have stepped forward and offered to take the Doom with her.  He didn't, now she is some kind of monster as far as he is concerned. 

Ghost Story about the coming home to roost?  Perhaps, easy for us to moralize while reading it.  I think one can argue that it was wrong for Harry to drag Molly into it so he could get out of becoming Mab's monster.  However when Harry was in the process of "throwing Molly under the bus" as you say, his vision for his future was distorted and he wasn't playing with a full mental deck.  In that moment he couldn't see beyond the four walls of Forthill's office, but then neither could Molly.  Harry's huge mistake here happened before that moment, his mistake in my opinion was not giving her the moral foundational training that Eb had given him.  That moral foundation about magic, Molly never got it, from the time she screwed with the minds of her friends to the blocking of Harry's memory to assist his suicide, she always felt she could justify it if she felt it was the right thing to do.   That is what made her a warlock, there was no rehabbing her from that view point.  Her actions with her friends did great harm, but she thought she was helping them, did she ever repent that viewpoint?  I don't remember her ever doing that..  She was told not to put her fingers on the hot stove least she get burnt, but she continued anyway and no one forced her.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2021, 12:39:23 PM »
Even worse. Going to Eb or Listen to Wind was never a suggestion to be taken seriously. Even trying to find them was too dangerous. It is not that she could just visit Edinburgh or knew where they lived.

Morgan showed her how to open ways in TC.  She knew where the way to Edinburgh opened in Chicago.  She traveled it in TC and Changes.

Quote
Harry also did not contact them to ask what was possible in case he died.

That’s true.

Quote
The whole suggestion was much like what Nicodemus said to his daughter before he killed her. It was empty words to make Molly and Harry go through with it.

Ouch.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2021, 01:37:20 PM »
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Morgan showed her how to open ways in TC.  She knew where the way to Edinburgh opened in Chicago.  She traveled it in TC and Changes.

Yes, she did, but she also witnessed Council justice before, both her own near miss and what happened to Morgan.  I doubt she felt she'd find any sympathy there for her plight.  Now if Carlos
had been able to talk with her and went to Edinburgh with her, or offered to be her new mentor or supervisor and put himself under the Doom with her, she might have had a chance.  He didn't, though he found her physically attractive, did he ever look beyond that?  Maybe Molly knew that too, and it was for this reason that her mantle reacted so violently to his attempted love making?

Quote
That’s true.

It's true that he didn't, but his mental state wasn't the best and he couldn't see beyond himself and little Maggie.  And after Maggie was saved and he had the chance to talk to Eb about Molly, his mind was already blocked so he had no idea of what was coming next.

Oh, and one more thought, even though Eb didn't know of Harry's looming suicide, he did know he was now Mab's Winter Knight.. Remember his advice to Harry about how Mab can't totally force him to do things against his will, or something like that, it meshes with Uriel's seven words.  Anyway, what I am getting at is knowing that, Eb never asked Harry about what happens to Molly now? Nor did Harry ask Eb to look after her once he'd been shipped off to Arctus Tor.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 02:06:32 PM by Mira »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2021, 02:04:39 PM »
Morgan showed her how to open ways in TC.  She knew where the way to Edinburgh opened in Chicago.  She traveled it in TC and Changes.
That would mean walking into Edinburgh blindly. The Merlin would love that and execute her on the spot. Technically she was a warlock on the run and after Harry was dead no formalities were needed, the suspension of her dead sentence was over.

Just walking into Edinburgh was out of question.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 02:08:48 PM by Arjan »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2021, 02:11:59 PM »
That would mean walking into Edinburgh blindly. The Merlin would love that and execute on the spot. Technically she was a warlock on the run and after Harry was dead no formalities were needed, the suspension of her dead sentence was over.

Just walking into Edinburgh was out of question.

Why would she be, if it wasn't her doing that he was dead.  All she needed was another wizard to step forward to take up her apprenticeship.  None did.  Instead of looking the other way as things got worse for her, if Carlos had captured her, soul gazed her and then offered to take Harry's place.
Truth is no one gave a damn about the fate of Molly, only Mab for very selfish reasons.