The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Mab chose Molly
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: LostInTime on October 14, 2021, 07:11:23 PM ---Your position isn't supported by the books, yet.
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I'll be quite honest, I'ma lose my cool with you real quick. The books entirely support that position, they DO NOT support your position. This
--- Quote --- by the flawed rules we have been shown.
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is where YOUR position is not supported by the books, since it only fits based entirely on the idea what we've been shown is a false set of rules. The rules are the rules, Jim hasn't lied about them(and saying he has simply invalidates the point of listening to him explain Canon in HIS works) he hasn't shown us all of them, but where in he has they aren't flawed. Your understanding of them is, just as your position, especially after saying mine isn't, is flawed.
Now, if you really wanna argue this, go ahead. BUT, not applying a false negative to another's argument. Either break it down with something solid, proven facts, correlations, ect. OR, build up your own argument. But by the God's I'ma shred that point of contention to pieces in a way I haven't done on this forum in years..
Mira:
--- Quote ---Why was Michael's child worth less than Maggie? That was the choice Harry made. He made a promise to Molly and broke it. She was still under the doom and he left her swinging in the wind. And this has nothing to do with anything Molly did. He should never have asked her. His only saving grace was seven words.
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I don't think that Harry would say that she was. Do not discount the place Harry was in physically and emotionally, the choices he had were bad, but less bad was Winter Knight.. Harry only had Slate as an example of a Winter Knight and he didn't want to become Mab's hit man. He asked Molly because he was desperate, saw no other way, and had very little time. As I said, Molly was no longer some silly teenager, she'd been around the block, her choice, of her own free will, she assisted Harry's suicide. If he had seen or could see another way out of his dilemma he would have chosen it. I don't think either of them could think beyond that moment in Forthill's office when they made the decision.
--- Quote ---That Harry is oblivious makes not one whit of difference. Jim actually trolls you with this at the start of Proven Guilty. Harry's bitching about how warlocks are killed by the Wardens. Yet under his nose, the daughter of his best friend goes warlock and he misses it. Pot, kettle, black? I bet you Jim fell off his chair laughing when he wrote that.
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Really? Harry might feel that and blame himself, but a few points, it isn't like he was at the Carpenter house every day and saw Molly every day. Nothing is said about her hanging out at his place or his office. Neither Michael or Charity said anything, especially Charity who knew one of her kids could have talent because she did, but thought if she ignored it it would go away like her own talent. Ignoring her own near miss with unguided warlockhood, the last thing she wanted was to clue Harry in on all of this so he could be watching for the signs. Remember what Harry said about when his own talents awakened? Suddenly he could jump higher and farther than the other kids if I remember correctly. Yes, Harry is bitching about kids turning into warlocks and losing their heads over it. However, 1] He learns because of Molly that kids with talent aren't that easy to spot. 2] He steps up asks for a trial, steps up to the plate and saves her, then volunteers to take the Doom along side of her in spite of his short comings as a teacher.. So Jim trolling us? I don't think so.
--- Quote ---ust for the record the Dresden Files is a noir-ish mystery. This isn't me hating on Harry. The protagonist is supposed to be flawed. He isn't Superman.
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Exactly so lets not judge him like he is Superman or a moral paragon..
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: LostInTime on October 14, 2021, 07:20:00 PM ---My point is, we don't know the mechanism and criteria for choosing the lady when the mantle opens up.
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We know enough. Molly was primed for the Mantle by being in close proximity to the Fey. Lily was primed the same way, by being in close contact with the Summer Knight. The only hard and fast rule is the Mantle has to go somewhere. That was Maeve's threat. Short of Jim writing a treatise on it, I don't expect greater clarity.
@Mira
Sure he was. And he does it often enough to be notable. He uses a specific temperature reference in the Cantina scene in Summer Knight and spits it back out, to the word, in Proven Guilty. He does it in Small Favor. In Chapter 3 he references Calvin and Hobbes before unleashing the Hobs on Harry and Michael in Chapter 23 with the inside joke that snowmen show up in that book constantly making them creatures of Winter. It's uncanny if you pay attention on your rereads.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Sure he was. And he does it often enough to be notable. He uses a specific temperature reference in the Cantina scene in Summer Knight and spits it back out, to the word, in Proven Guilty. He does it in Small Favor. In Chapter 3 he references Calvin and Hobbes before unleashing the Hobs on Harry and Michael in Chapter 23 with the inside joke that snowmen show up in that book constantly making them creatures of Winter. It's uncanny if you pay attention on your rereads.
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But not in the way you think I think. I think it was more like pointing out the irony of Harry's situation after his wondering how it happens that so many kids slip through. It highlights the tragedy of it all, because something that should be straight forward, really isn't, a life's lesson for the smugness of youth and inexperience... And yes, in wizard terms Harry is both young and inexperienced.
LostInTime:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on October 14, 2021, 07:59:43 PM ---I'll be quite honest, I'ma lose my cool with you real quick. The books entirely support that position, they DO NOT support your position.
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I'll break it down for you, Barney-style.
The fae lady mantles are supposed to go to the closest reflection of their court.
Lily was an undeclared changeling. Her mother was a Nixie, making her a mortal, technically. But Nixies are members of the Winter court. FLAW.
Lily said that no mortal has ever been given a fae queen mantle.
Mab confided in Harry that she was once mortal. FLAW. It's a double FLAW, since Mab and Titania are twin sisters per WOJ. Whoops! It's a quadruple FLAW, since Maeve and Sarissa were Mab's twin daughters by an Austrian composer in the 19th century, and Maeve was already the Winter Lady.
WOJ is that a person possessing a fae mantle can't acquire another one, since they would be 'full'. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/ On this page, all the way at the bottom.
Lily was the Summer Knight and acquired the Summer Lady mantle. FLAW.
In Summer Knight, Aurora just dies. Harry doesn't even find out until days later that Lily is now the Summer lady and Fix took up the Summer Knight.
In Cold Days there's a big dramatic sequence where the mantle coalesces into a big green bird-like figure and leaps from Lily's prostrate form into Sarissa. The same thing happens between Maeve and Molly, only the bird is blue. FLAW.
These are contradictions. We are being told one thing and being shown another. Until an errata sheet is published, there's no clarity. And, FWIW, Jim has said out front, that he WILL lie to us. Until and unless it's shown and explained in the books, it's not written in stone. And even then, comic book rules apply. Harry is a rule-breaker. See also: Law of Magic 1 and 5.
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