Harry actually should be out of the White Council

[LostInTime]

But not for the reasons they stated.

So, the White Council kicked Harry out for slaughtering the Fomor servitors (technically human). There were witnesses, and even though the servitors would have gleefully killed Harry, the self-defense exemption wasn’t allowed. I guess this was a fig leaf for his expulsion. Whether or not that was to allow him more freedom of action to be a destroyer or not, we’ll have to wait to find out.

Still, under the fourth law, he should have been out. The fourth law of magic forbids the binding of any other being against its will. Harry bound Ethniu. Although, there was no witness, beyond Marcone. Despite the fact that every other magical heavyweight there had already been flattened. Despite the fact that the battle was still in question and all hinged on Ethniu being there to bolster the Fomor offense. By binding Ethniu, Harry should have legitimately been kicked out.

Way back in Storm Front, Harry wouldn’t bind a demon that he had wrested control of away from Victor Sells. Harry didn’t know it, but Morgan was watching and would have killed him had he bound the demon to his will.

And, just for a cherry on top of the sundae, later that evening, Harry bound Molly with a debt owed to the Warden of Demonreach. Molly herself said she was bound. It doesn’t matter that it’s A-okay with the fae that you bind them.

[forumghost]

Sure it does.- Harry points it out to Morgan all the way back at the start of the series when he tries to harass Harry for binding Toot-toot.

The Seven laws only apply to humans, not Faeries, or Gods, or Vampires, or anything else.

[groinkick]

Sure it does.- Harry points it out to Morgan all the way back at the start of the series when he tries to harass Harry for binding Toot-toot.

The Seven laws only apply to humans, not Faeries, or Gods, or Vampires, or anything else.

Exactly.  Also he didn't bind Molly the way the Council set the laws.  They are talking about when you use someone's Name, or blood, or something that basically enslaves or controls a human.

[Mira]

So, the White Council kicked Harry out for slaughtering the Fomor servitors (technically human). There were witnesses, and even though the servitors would have gleefully killed Harry, the self-defense exemption wasn’t allowed. I guess this was a fig leaf for his expulsion. Whether or not that was to allow him more freedom of action to be a destroyer or not, we’ll have to wait to find out.

 Everyone knows that was a fig leaf, it was the excuse they needed to do it.  The Fomor servitors might "look" human, but they have gills, not exactly human, and it was in the middle of a battle.  The Council also knows that, that is why they commuted the death sentence to expulsion, otherwise they'd have to execute half the Council. 

[Griffyn612]

You have to remember that to the average Joe Wizard, Harry Dresden is a nightmare.

Indisputable Facts

• Harry is the son of an expelled wizard that had a death sentence with the Council and was known to hang out with monsters.
• Harry was adopted by a Warden in good standing with the Council, a war hero no less that helped bring down Kemmler, but Harry killed him with magic in unknown circumstances.
• Harry openly flaunted tradition by practicing openly.
• Harry started a war that could have been avoided, which got a lot of wizards killed.
• Harry committed genocide against a supernatural nation that was actively pursuing peace.
• Harry abandoned his duties after committing genocide, leaving his Council-sworn duty of protecting Chicago to a rogue apprentice wanted for murder.
• Harry became the Winter Knight, the murderous assassin for the evil Sidhe Court.
• Harry is a close associate and suspected lover of White Court royalty.
• Harry performed necromantic magic and was not punished.
• Harry killed with magic and was not punished.
• Harry's apprentice performed mind magic and was not punished.
• Harry worked with Nicodemus Archleon.
• Harry worked with Mab numerous times before becoming her assassin.
• Harry killed a Summer Lady.
• Harry was involved in the deaths of the WinterLady and another Summer Lady.

It's no wonder he lost the popular vote, and you don't even have to bring speculation into it.

[Con]

You have to remember that to the average Joe Wizard, Harry Dresden is a nightmare.

Indisputable Facts

• Harry is the son of an expelled wizard that had a death sentence with the Council and was known to hang out with monsters.
• Harry was adopted by a Warden in good standing with the Council, a war hero no less that helped bring down Kemmler, but Harry killed him with magic in unknown circumstances.
• Harry openly flaunted tradition by practicing openly.
• Harry started a war that could have been avoided, which got a lot of wizards killed.
• Harry committed genocide against a supernatural nation that was actively pursuing peace.
• Harry abandoned his duties after committing genocide, leaving his Council-sworn duty of protecting Chicago to a rogue apprentice wanted for murder.
• Harry became the Winter Knight, the murderous assassin for the evil Sidhe Court.
• Harry is a close associate and suspected lover of White Court royalty.
• Harry performed necromantic magic and was not punished.
• Harry killed with magic and was not punished.
• Harry's apprentice performed mind magic and was not punished.
• Harry worked with Nicodemus Archleon.
• Harry worked with Mab numerous times before becoming her assassin.
• Harry killed a Summer Lady.
• Harry was involved in the deaths of the WinterLady and another Summer Lady.

It's no wonder he lost the popular vote, and you don't even have to bring speculation into it.

You should add this post to the "This is why the White Council is afraid of Dresden" Thread

Still, under the fourth law, he should have been out. The fourth law of magic forbids the binding of any other being against its will. Harry bound Ethniu. Although, there was no witness, beyond Marcone. Despite the fact that every other magical heavyweight there had already been flattened. Despite the fact that the battle was still in question and all hinged on Ethniu being there to bolster the Fomor offense. By binding Ethniu, Harry should have legitimately been kicked out.

Way back in Storm Front, Harry wouldn’t bind a demon that he had wrested control of away from Victor Sells. Harry didn’t know it, but Morgan was watching and would have killed him had he bound the demon to his will.

Fourth Wall breaking in Battle Ground would be the Winter Knight Banner couple of dozen Fae and a couple of hundred Humans under his will.

Just reread Storm Front, and am rereading Fool Moon. Harry is under the impression that summoning Demons is a Seventh Law hasn't learned what the Outer Gates are. When he summons Chauncy he makes a bunch of technical legal lawyery excuses as to how he's not breaking any of the Laws. Chauncy seems certain a Warden would kill him anyway.

[forumghost]

You have to remember that to the average Joe Wizard, Harry Dresden is a nightmare.

Indisputable Facts

• Harry is the son of an expelled wizard that had a death sentence with the Council and was known to hang out with monsters.
• Harry was adopted by a Warden in good standing with the Council, a war hero no less that helped bring down Kemmler, but Harry killed him with magic in unknown circumstances.
• Harry openly flaunted tradition by practicing openly.
• Harry started a war that could have been avoided, which got a lot of wizards killed.
• Harry committed genocide against a supernatural nation that was actively pursuing peace.
• Harry abandoned his duties after committing genocide, leaving his Council-sworn duty of protecting Chicago to a rogue apprentice wanted for murder.
• Harry became the Winter Knight, the murderous assassin for the evil Sidhe Court.
• Harry is a close associate and suspected lover of White Court royalty.
• Harry performed necromantic magic and was not punished.
• Harry killed with magic and was not punished.
• Harry's apprentice performed mind magic and was not punished.
• Harry worked with Nicodemus Archleon.
• Harry worked with Mab numerous times before becoming her assassin.
• Harry killed a Summer Lady.
• Harry was involved in the deaths of the WinterLady and another Summer Lady.

It's no wonder he lost the popular vote, and you don't even have to bring speculation into it.

I mean I'd dispute the claim that the Red Court was 'actively pursuing peace' given the fact that they released a bio-weapon attack on the White Council's headquarters less than 24 hours before, but the rest is true.

[Griffyn612]

I mean I'd dispute the claim that the Red Court was 'actively pursuing peace' given the fact that they released a bio-weapon attack on the White Council's headquarters less than 24 hours before, but the rest is true.

As far as we know, it was only suspected that they did. Harry was also there at the same time, demanding more bloodshed and threatening violence in the hall, while Arianna was there asking for peace and a path forward.

So in the eyes of his critics and those that fear him, which one dropped a bio-attack that threatened to continue the war?

[Mira]

    Harry is the son of an expelled wizard that had a death sentence with the Council and was known to hang out with monsters.

Harry didn't ask to be born nor whom to be born to.  The generates prejudice against him, but it is no reason to remove him from the Council.

Harry was adopted by a Warden in good standing with the Council, a war hero no less that helped bring down Kemmler, but Harry killed him with magic in unknown circumstan

But the wizard had gone warlock, granted Harry did kill him with magic at sixteen, but at a time when he didn't know there was a White Council or that there were Seven Laws, all he was trying to do was survive... Also if the Council wanted to give him the chop, that was the time.

Harry openly flaunted tradition by practicing openly.

Is it tradition?  I mean the original Merlin didn't hide his light under a rock, in fact until modern times wizards, though a bit secretive, did practice openly and held respected places in the social structure of communities.  Harry follows that tradition.

Harry started a war that could have been avoided, which got a lot of wizards killed.

He is accused of that, but that wasn't his intention.  Could it have been avoided?  Or is Harry the mere scapegoat that both sides needed to fight?  Also to quote Shiro, respected Holy Knight, paraphrasing, " the White Council is fortunate that the war began when it did, because the Reds didn't quite have their ducks in a row..  Because the Reds were going to attack, make no mistake, it couldn't have been avoided, and a lot more wizards would have died."  Also avoiding war at that point in time was above Harry's pay grade, that was for wizard diplomats, the Senior Council, they failed, Harry was merely the goat. 

Harry committed genocide against a supernatural nation that was actively pursuing peace.

Were they? Sacrificing a small child to wipe out generations of a wizard's family is hardly an act of a pursing peace.  The Council might overlook the demise of Harry and his little girl, but do you think they could over look Eb's assassination?  Also as pointed out, releasing a bio-weapon in White Council headquarters isn't an act of peace.  Langtree also knew it, that is why he took Harry aside to keep up the fight, in a kind of "Mission Impossible" way...

Harry abandoned his duties after committing genocide, leaving his Council-sworn duty of protecting Chicago to a rogue apprentice wanted for murder.

Harry was mentally disturbed at that point, and cannot be held responsible for what happened.  Also would it have happened if he wasn't forced to go to Mab in the first place? The Council refused to help Harry save his child, it was the Red King, not Harry that devised the original spell.  Molly was of age when she decided to aid Harry, and she knew perfectly well what she was doing when he was gone. 

Harry became the Winter Knight, the murderous assassin for the evil Sidhe Court.

The Winter Court isn't evil, they are the ones protecting the rest of the world from the Outsiders at the Gates and have taken losses in the millions.  Also if the Council had supported Harry as they should, they were the first ones he went to with his dilemma, he wouldn't have had to ultimately turn to Mab.

Harry is a close associate and suspected lover of White Court royalty.

Suspect isn't proof, and the White Court as a signer of the Accords is supposed to be an ally not an enemy.

Harry performed necromantic magic and was not punished.

He didn't raise a human from the dead.. Also he did it as a Warden of the White Council, if they didn't like the fact that he had stopped the darkhallow, then at the very least Luccio should have demanded his Warden's cloak back.  It was the Council's decision not to punish Harry, he had nothing to do with that decision.

Harry killed with magic and was not punished.

In self defense, often as a Warden, again, if he wasn't punished, who's fault is that?  Harry is supposed to punish himself?  Or was he merely doing the dirty work that the Council wanted done, had to be done, but were too good in their minds to dirty their hands with the deeds? The Council repeatedly looked the other way, or perhaps muttered a "tut tut..."

Harry's apprentice performed mind magic and was not punished.

It isn't like Harry didn't try to warn her... And YET AGAIN, who's fault is that?  Molly was under the Doom, if she broke the rule about mind magic both she and Harry should have gotten the chop.  Yet again, the Council looked the other way... Or rather in the middle of a scandal because they were manipulated by Peabody with his ink chose to look the other way... Why?  Because without Harry uncovering the fact, they still would be manipulated..

Harry worked with Nicodemus Archleon.

Is there a law against that?  Also how many other wizards over the centuries also done the same thing?  I doubt that Harry was the first or will he be the last.

Harry worked with Mab numerous times before becoming her assassin.

So has the Council, they need her, they used her lands to move back and forth during the war with the Reds.  They are allies.

Harry killed a Summer Lady.

Not directly, Toot and Company did that.  Technicality, I know, but had it not been done, things would have been a lot worse, because the balance of power would have collapsed and the defense of the Gates would have collapsed,  then what would the Council have done?

Harry was involved in the deaths of the WinterLady and another Summer Lady.

But he didn't do it, and had it not been done and the prison of Demonreach opened and unspeakable monsters would have been loosed on the world.. What then?

It's no wonder he lost the popular vote, and you don't even have to bring speculation into it.

The answers to the charges are also indisputable facts, well if that makes Harry an outlaw, I'm with Michael and his string of oaths that were not printable...

As far as we know, it was only suspected that they did. Harry was also there at the same time, demanding more bloodshed and threatening violence in the hall, while Arianna was there asking for peace and a path forward.

So in the eyes of his critics and those that fear him, which one dropped a bio-attack that threatened to continue the war?

Harry's child was threatened, if he hadn't done, some would question his character for that.  Again, he didn't originate the spell that wiped out the Red Court, it was the Red King and it backfired.  Also Harry was one distressed wizard, it shouldn't have triggered Arrianna to let loose the bio-weapon, not if she really wanted peace, it merely gave her an excuse.  If she really wanted peace, all that was needed was to demand that Harry be shut up and locked up until she finished her negotiations.
But she had her own agenda, and it wasn't peace with the White Council.

[vincentric]

What the average White Council wizard knows of Dresden is much, much, much less than we the readers know. We know that Harry was justified in all those things but that is not common knowledge. Only a select few(likely only Rashid, Langtry, Ebeneezer, Listens-to-the-Wind and maybe Luccio) know most of the details of these incidents and they are divided between Harry's allies and antagonists. And since telling Harry's side of the story would reveal too many secrets, both political and world security related, the common wizard is operating off rumors and hearsay and will tend to follow Langtry(who is hostilely disposed to Harry). Holding the expulsion vote while Harry's top Senior Council advocates were hospitalized just sealed the deal.

[Mira]

What the average White Council wizard knows of Dresden is much, much, much less than we the readers know. We know that Harry was justified in all those things but that is not common knowledge. Only a select few(likely only Rashid, Langtry, Ebeneezer, Listens-to-the-Wind and maybe Luccio) know most of the details of these incidents and they are divided between Harry's allies and antagonists. And since telling Harry's side of the story would reveal too many secrets, both political and world security related, the common wizard is operating off rumors and hearsay and will tend to follow Langtry(who is hostilely disposed to Harry). Holding the expulsion vote while Harry's top Senior Council advocates were hospitalized just sealed the deal.

But that is the point isn't it?  It is about the politics, I actually don't think it would have made any difference whether Harry's allies were present or not..  Kangaroo Court comes to mind, with Langtry in the part of Judge Roy Bean the hanging judge..  Carlos has been totally brain washed, demanding that Harry "talk to him," but how can Harry talk when he doesn't know what the question is?  No, he may get some answers from Listens to Wind, Rashid is too removed these days because he has his hands full at the Gates, and Eb is too emotionally involved to be rational.  Instead of just demanding that Harry go back to headquarters at the beginning of Peace Talks to schmooze in an effort to save his place, if he had just explained some of it.  Yeah, lots of it is the same old, same old, but why suddenly did it become a problem and who was behind the push?  No, I think the big hope is the hook up with Chandler. 

[morriswalters]

I wouldn't want him in my playground given a choice.

Jim has said before that the Council sees Harry differently then Harry might see himself. And Merlin has tried this strategy twice, first in Summer Knight and then again in Proven Guilty. Luccio warned him that he was feared by the Council at large  when she made him take the cloak. So Harry shouldn't be surprised.

Harry has a lot of secrets. And he acknowledges as much in Peace Talks when confronted by Carlos.

Fear is a prison. But when you combine it with secrets, it becomes especially toxic, vicious. It puts us all into solitary, unable to hear one another clearly.

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 146). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

I wouldn't want him in my playground given a choice.

Jim has said before that the Council sees Harry differently then Harry might see himself. And Merlin has tried this strategy twice, first in Summer Knight and then again in Proven Guilty. Luccio warned him that he was feared by the Council at large  when she made him take the cloak. So Harry shouldn't be surprised.

Harry has a lot of secrets. And he acknowledges as much in Peace Talks when confronted by Carlos.

Yes, but at the risk of repeating myself... Well, I'll repeat myself, to talk to Carlos, Harry needed to be asked the right questions by Carlos, any question, just a fricking question, "why did you x,y, or z?"  Just "talk to me," doesn't solve anything, it sends the message, "we assume you are guilty, so can you justify it?"   I mean, Harry could answer why he prefers hearts instead of smiley faces on his under shorts and did the Council have a problem with that and why? Answer, "Guilty, because the question was about starch." You get the picture.  Harry was headed for a kangaroo court, and knew it, and all Carlos, a.k.a "talk to me," was fishing for was a strand of rope for Harry to incriminate himself with.. That is what Chandler was hinting at with his wink and nod, these guys are not your friends..

[Second Aristh]

You have to remember that to the average Joe Wizard, Harry Dresden is a nightmare.

Indisputable Facts

• Harry is the son of an expelled wizard that had a death sentence with the Council and was known to hang out with monsters.
• Harry was adopted by a Warden in good standing with the Council, a war hero no less that helped bring down Kemmler, but Harry killed him with magic in unknown circumstances.
• Harry openly flaunted tradition by practicing openly.
• Harry started a war that could have been avoided, which got a lot of wizards killed.
• Harry committed genocide against a supernatural nation that was actively pursuing peace.
• Harry abandoned his duties after committing genocide, leaving his Council-sworn duty of protecting Chicago to a rogue apprentice wanted for murder.
• Harry became the Winter Knight, the murderous assassin for the evil Sidhe Court.
• Harry is a close associate and suspected lover of White Court royalty.
• Harry performed necromantic magic and was not punished.
• Harry killed with magic and was not punished.
• Harry's apprentice performed mind magic and was not punished.
• Harry worked with Nicodemus Archleon.
• Harry worked with Mab numerous times before becoming her assassin.
• Harry killed a Summer Lady.
• Harry was involved in the deaths of the WinterLady and another Summer Lady.

It's no wonder he lost the popular vote, and you don't even have to bring speculation into it.

Harry is also the Warden of Demonreach, like Kemmler was before him (a few places back, I think). 
Harry is also a starborn, whatever that actually means.  We do know that Drakul is in that small club.

It also doesn't help that Harry didn't show his face around Edinburgh much.  There wasn't a human being to balance out the terrifying reputation.

[morriswalters]

The answer doesn't matter nor does the question, if there is no trust between the speakers.  Jim has established this multiple times.  Because Butters had lost  faith in Harry during Skin Game he lost trust and no answer that Harry gave him could change that.