The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders

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groinkick:
ok so from what Jim has said, the Outsiders hate reality because it's noisy.  But the Outsiders serve the Old Ones who used to rule reality before being cast out.  So it seems like the Outsiders are not actually connected to the Old Ones but serve them for some reason.  Am I getting this right?  Here is what I got from the Dresden Files Fandom:

"The Old Ones are an ancient race of demons or gods. They once ruled the mortal world, but were later cast out and locked away from reality.[2] Being primal spiritual entities, they cannot ever truly be destroyed. Not all are Outside, however; some, like the one known as the Sleeper, are on Earth, but imprisoned and entombed.[3]

Even today, they can be still active, feeding on psychic energy, primarily the fear and awareness of them present in humanity.[3] For that reason, the Venatori seek to wipe out knowledge, and thus influence, of the Old Ones in the Oblivion War.[4] The existence of the Old Ones is also one of the last things wizard apprentices learn about in a traditional apprenticeship.[3]

The Outsiders act as their servants and foot soldiers.[2]

The only known Old One so far is the Lord of the Slowest Terror."


So I'm wondering what the relationship is between them.  I mean the Old Ones appear to be from the Inside, so why would they be allied with Outsiders?  Or are the Outsiders, and Old Ones originally from the Inside until they were cast out, making them the original insiders?

Second Aristh:
Are the Old Ones and Outsiders actually different?  I was thinking they were like the noble class version of Outsiders.  Some of this may be purposefully inconsistent for secret keeping purposes, too.

Mira:

--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 24, 2021, 03:37:20 AM ---Are the Old Ones and Outsiders actually different?  I was thinking they were like the noble class version of Outsiders.  Some of this may be purposefully inconsistent for secret keeping purposes, too.

--- End quote ---

I think the lines get blurred..  If I remember correctly in C.I. it was about the Old Ones, but no mention of Outsiders, and I think Harry would have named them as that, if they were.  They might be allies though.

Snark Knight:
In the flashback in GS, when Harry told the Walker this isn't his world, it replied that it once was and will soon be again.

I think the difference between the outsiders and the Old Ones who were kicked Outside at the moment of creation (presumably by TWG) is one of stature, not separate factions where one works for the other. The Old Ones rule, the Outsiders serve, but they're the same overall pantheon.

Part of the Outsider agenda is presumably rescuing / waking the rest of their rulership caste like the Sleeper.

Yuillegan:
So to be clear, Old Ones are apparently Outsiders. They both originate from Outside and seem to share the same characteristics and work together. The Old Ones do appear to be a more powerful type of Outsider, equivalent to a god. They can do things that so far we've only seen powerful gods, and TWG do - i.e. create holy ground (see the Sleeper in Cold Case).

The ideas Jim has drawn from are fairly clear - and you only have to go back to older interviews to see the inspiration. Lovecraft, Buffy, Chronicles of Amber, Babylon 5, Hellboy, Warhammer, Warcraft, and Dungeons and Dragons, to name a few. Each of these contain a version of Old One and Outsider type beings. Jim has even said things like Lovecraft being killed because he was on to something, and "Outsiders are more the Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd". He has read and watched and played in all those universes so it's no wonder he's built his version out of them, and others too.

The story goes, at least from what bits of information we have, that the Outsiders (including the Old Ones) existed before Creation. Then TWG made Creation and told them all to stay out, and perhaps at that point they couldn't enter (or more likely, the Angels were the original guards). But then TWG gave mortals free will and allowed them to invite the Outsiders in if they chose to (although how mortals learned of them in the first place is a mystery). They did invite enough in eventually (sometime in early human history - likely pre-history) and the Old Ones came in and ruled Earth. Obviously, a very bad thing and I imagine it made the Old Ones and the Outsiders very powerful. Why they didn't destroy Creation back then is a bit of a mystery...but often these beings in the stories that inspired Jim like to "play with their food" so to speak - they like to torture and ruin everything first before unmaking everything. Which give heroes enough time to defeat them in many stories. Anyway, I suspect the time Outsiders ruled will be in a fiction pre-historical era where there was both cavemen and the advanced civilisations of Atlantis and Hyperborea type of thing. We know Atlantis exists in the Dresden Files as Maeve refers to it's destruction in Cold Days.

Anyway, the Old Ones were eventually defeated locked up in prisons in reality, although some may have been cast out. We don't know enough about that time to be sure. Presumably star born helped with this, and it all seems to do with the Cycle (a loop of events that includes the 666 year conjunction that creates star born and some other event where the balance of power is reset and/or the Outsiders get a good chance to come in). Some call it the Game.

Just to note Groinkick - while I appreciate the work of the Dresden Files Fandom wiki team, that wiki is a bit out of date and full of speculation unfortunately rather than just the facts of the series. It's a bit unreliable. Good for an overview but not as a source. They are correct mostly about the Old Ones...but it's not the same as the Oblivion War (according to Jim - despite some theories to the contrary). Until we get a ruling it's really just speculation.

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