Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?

[Mira]

 Okay early this morning I was replying to a post in the Contagion thread.  One of the things we are debating there is when exactly was Justine infected?  In the course of that one question came to my mind, which led to another and I decided it really needed it's own thread.
 
  In Blood Rites Thomas is severely injured, to save his life Justine either volunteers or is sent to be fed upon most likely until death to save Thomas by Lord Raith.  Honestly I can't remember if she volunteered to sacrifice herself of Lord Raith volunteered her.  Anyway out of love we are led to believe Thomas risked not recovering because he stopped himself feeding on her in time to save her.  Her hair turned snow white, and she became Lara's secretary and a bit of a spy for Harry.  First question, were they or weren't they in true love at that time?  Because if they were, all Justine would have done was burn Thomas up.  And actually if he suspected it, and as we know wanted to get rid of his son, that might be why Lord Raith sent Justine to him. 

Which leads to the second part, how is it that Justine survived?

I don't know if the theory is correct, but any rate the feeding until death to heal him must be the exception to the rule, or Thomas should have burned up.  Or what if there never was true love between Justine and Thomas?  What if Nemesis can fake true love?  Thus the burning reaction can be turned off or on, at will?  In normal times when Thomas is merely trying to snuggle her, he gets burnt.. Off, when Thomas was feeding on her in Blood Rites to save his life.  In addition, Nemesis was strong enough to withstand any amount of feeding so it only seemed as if Thomas quit feeding out of love for her before she died from it.

If the above is true, it would explain a lot of things, it would give Nemesis a spy in Lara's inner circle. Also a double agent or you might say triple agent, because we know that Justine was passing information she learned as Lara's secretary to Harry, but at the same time Nemesis could be learning information from Harry and passing it on.. Thomas already totally potty over Justine would be fooled by the "faked" true love reaction from contact with her, the stage is set for ultimately happened in Peace Talks.

One last point, interesting don't you think that Justine waits until "Ghost Story," when supposedly star born with power against Outsiders, Harry is dead, to have the lesbian sex which allowed her to have intercourse with Thomas which led to her getting pregnant?   Why didn't she think of that before?  Why wait until Harry is "dead" and Thomas is at his most vulnerable ebb?

[Second Aristh]

From a writing perspective, I think that the scenario explained in Blood Rites where Thomas was able to pull away at the last minute is probably the truth as well as the birth of the true love protection between them.  Faking true love seems like it would cheapen their character arcs in an unnecessary way (e.g. if it wasn't actual love for Justine, what motivates Thomas in PT?)

As far as the timeline for Justine's infection, I think that's a topic worth delving into more deeply.  Assuming that the exact point Nemesis infection has some clues in the text (since other major infectees were; Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith), we can start narrowing things down.

Beside claims that it had Justine since she had become close to Lara.

"How long?"  I asked.  "How long have you been in Justine?"
Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture.  "Mortal time is such a limited concept.  A few years.  Ever since she became close to Lara."

Going off this, it seems like it would have to be at least a significant period after Blood Rites.  In White Night, Justine is still playing ditsy, but she's clearly Lara's top aide.  Significantly, White Night also shows us the Black Council interfering in the White Court.  Cowl got a personal view of Justine blowing her air horn and being protected by Lara, not to mention whatever information Madrigal passed along.  I'd imagine that that at least would have put her on the Black Council's radar, hence a Nemesis interest.

Justine was a small part of Turn Coat where she was in the club Zero and burns Madeline Raith.  I don't see an obvious time for her to be taken here.

Justine's next big appearance would have been in Even Hand, about eight months before Changes.  There, Lara sent Justine as a messenger to the Fomor but she was abducted by a different Fomor lord, Mag.  While in Mag's custody, Justine managed to free a bunch of his prisoners before fleeing to Marcone for protection.  This could very well be where she was infected. 

Justine was also a player in the Bombshells short story a bit before Ghost Story where Molly prevents the Fomor from bombing the svartalves at a treaty signing.  Justine being infected in Even Hand makes her involvement here need some explaining, but that's probably doable.

After that, Justine was a hostage of the Redcap in Cold Days.  This might be an opportunity to get to her, but we learned in BG that the Redcap was Mab's eyes on Maeve in CD.  It would have taken more than just the Redcap for that to be the infection time.  Plus, it doesn't exactly fit the "ever since she got close to Justine" line from Nemesis.

Finally, we know that Justine was infected before the start of PT since her getting pregnant was Nemesis's idea.  Of all of Justine's on-screen time, Even Hand seems like the most likely suspect from what we know now.

[Second Aristh]

One last point, interesting don't you think that Justine waits until "Ghost Story," when supposedly star born with power against Outsiders, Harry is dead, to have the lesbian sex which allowed her to have intercourse with Thomas which led to her getting pregnant?   Why didn't she think of that before?  Why wait until Harry is "dead" and Thomas is at his most vulnerable ebb?

For this, Thomas was feeding well before Ghost Story.  There wasn't a need for him to feed from Justine prior to that.  After Harry's death, Justine was the trick to help him dig out of his depression.

Also, assuming that Even Hand was Justine's infection time, it's not long after that until Justine had the threesome idea.

[Mira]

For this, Thomas was feeding well before Ghost Story.  There wasn't a need for him to feed from Justine prior to that.  After Harry's death, Justine was the trick to help him dig out of his depression.

I believe it was mentioned in Grave Peril, that is when we first meet Justine, that Thomas was feeding
off of her and that was helping her mental health.  So yes, he was feeding on her.

From a writing perspective, I think that the scenario explained in Blood Rites where Thomas was able to pull away at the last minute is probably the truth as well as the birth of the true love protection between them.  Faking true love seems like it would cheapen their character arcs in an unnecessary way (e.g. if it wasn't actual love for Justine, what motivates Thomas in PT?)

Why would it cheapen it?  It wouldn't cheapen how Thomas feels about her.  And it was that love that Nemesis used as a weapon, she deliberately gets pregnant, and uses Thomas's love for her and fear for the child as blackmail to get him to the assassination attempt in Peace Talks.. Which by the way Nemesis admits to in Battle Ground, does that cheapen how Thomas feels for her?  Justine herself might not feel anything one way or the other for Thomas, and Nemesis has been pulling the strings all along.

As far as the timeline for Justine's infection, I think that's a topic worth delving into more deeply.  Assuming that the exact point Nemesis infection has some clues in the text (since other major infectees were; Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith), we can start narrowing things down.

Ones we were told about at the time, however we weren't told about Justine until the end of Battle Ground.  However the introduction of the infection to the Winter Court through the Knife happens in Grave Peril, that is also when we are introduced to Justine and made aware of the attachment of Thomas to her.

Going off this, it seems like it would have to be at least a significant period after Blood Rites.  In White Night, Justine is still playing ditsy, but she's clearly Lara's top aide.  Significantly, White Night also shows us the Black Council interfering in the White Court.  Cowl got a personal view of Justine blowing her air horn and being protected by Lara, not to mention whatever information Madrigal passed along.  I'd imagine that that at least would have put her on the Black Council's radar, hence a Nemesis interest.

"Mortal time is such a vague concept."  Okay, so that means that Nemesis wasn't willing to give Harry a straight answer there, because that would answer a lot of questions he isn't willing to answer.  As in just when did the infestation happen and how long as Nemesis planned this strike?
You make my point when you say in White Night Justine is still acting ditsy but still is Lara's top aid.
Does Lara strike you as the type of person who'd have a ditsy person acting as her personal aid and secretary?  The answer to that is no, she wouldn't.  So more evidence that Nemesis can turn behaviors on and off at will for whatever serves it's purpose.

Justine's next big appearance would have been in Even Hand, about eight months before Changes.  There, Lara sent Justine as a messenger to the Fomor but she was abducted by a different Fomor lord, Mag.  While in Mag's custody, Justine managed to free a bunch of his prisoners before fleeing to Marcone for protection.  This could very well be where she was infected.

Could be, or it was all an act, like her "concern" for Thomas after he was captured and beaten half to death in Peace Talks.  Something was a bit off, but because their love was "well known" Harry didn't push to find out why it didn't feel right.

Finally, we know that Justine was infected before the start of PT since her getting pregnant was Nemesis's idea.  Of all of Justine's on-screen time, Even Hand seems like the most likely suspect from what we know now.

No, it is a mere assumption.

[Second Aristh]

I believe it was mentioned in Grave Peril, that is when we first meet Justine, that Thomas was feeding
off of her and that was helping her mental health.  So yes, he was feeding on her.

Sure he has fed on her before, but I was referring to the period between BR and GS.  There was no need to feed on Justine in that period since Thomas was well fed.  At the same time, Justine was on medication from Lara for her mental issues.  They didn't need a work-around for a problem that didn't exist.  It's not particularly suspicious that the work-around didn't come about until GS.

Why would it cheapen it?  It wouldn't cheapen how Thomas feels about her.  And it was that love that Nemesis used as a weapon, she deliberately gets pregnant, and uses Thomas's love for her and fear for the child as blackmail to get him to the assassination attempt in Peace Talks.. Which by the way Nemesis admits to in Battle Ground, does that cheapen how Thomas feels for her?  Justine herself might not feel anything one way or the other for Thomas, and Nemesis has been pulling the strings all along.

"Psych, it's not really true love" is not a good story twist, imo.  Your mileage my vary.

Ones we were told about at the time, however we weren't told about Justine until the end of Battle Ground.  However the introduction of the infection to the Winter Court through the Knife happens in Grave Peril, that is also when we are introduced to Justine and made aware of the attachment of Thomas to her.

We weren't told about Maeve's infection until CD, but we get in-text clues about it happening in the final battle of SK.  I'm going off the assumption that we're in a similar situation for Justine, hence looking for clues of those types of opportunities.

GP is a possibility, but that's even earlier than Nemesis admits to in BG.  Justine wasn't taken under Lara's wing until after BR.  Personally, the end of WN feels like the point where Nemesis would determine that Justine would be a worthwhile target, so the actual infection event would likely be sometime soon after.  If we also assume that it happens in text (since Justine is a major character), that puts Turn Coat/Even Hand to the top of the list of candidates.

"Mortal time is such a vague concept."  Okay, so that means that Nemesis wasn't willing to give Harry a straight answer there, because that would answer a lot of questions he isn't willing to answer.  As in just when did the infestation happen and how long as Nemesis planned this strike?
You make my point when you say in White Night Justine is still acting ditsy but still is Lara's top aid.
Does Lara strike you as the type of person who'd have a ditsy person acting as her personal aid and secretary?  The answer to that is no, she wouldn't.  So more evidence that Nemesis can turn behaviors on and off at will for whatever serves it's purpose.

Does Lara hire people who can feign harmlessness as a shield?  Sure, seems very White Court of her to value brains over brawn.  It's even more in Lara's character to have an aide that's particularly protected from her backstabbing frenemies via True Love. 

I have no doubt that Nemesis makes for a decent actor, but I don't see particular relevance for it in that aspect.

Could be, or it was all an act, like her "concern" for Thomas after he was captured and beaten half to death in Peace Talks.  Something was a bit off, but because their love was "well known" Harry didn't push to find out why it didn't feel right.

No, it is a mere assumption.

Even Hand being the time Justine was infected is built on a few assumptions, but I don't think they are unreasonable ones.

[Mira]

Sure he has fed on her before, but I was referring to the period between BR and GS.  There was no need to feed on Justine in that period since Thomas was well fed.  At the same time, Justine was on medication from Lara for her mental issues.  They didn't need a work-around for a problem that didn't exist.  It's not particularly suspicious that the work-around didn't come about until GS.

But whether or not he was feeding on her isn't the point.. He couldn't even touch her without getting burned after Blood Rites.  Not sure which book it was or story, but Harry meets them in a bar and is surprised that Thomas has his arm around her, the answer then was a rubber skin suit for her.. Why? When a one night stand with anyone would have solved their problem? 

We weren't told about Maeve's infection until CD, but we get in-text clues about it happening in the final battle of SK.  I'm going off the assumption that we're in a similar situation for Justine, hence looking for clues of those types of opportunities.

Mostly we have speculation, Aurora is a better example, we all agree for the most part that she was infected by Summer Knight.. But how and who?  Speculation, that it was Elaine, but no actual proof or even clues unless you buy she was infected when she fled Justin's house and found refuge at the Summer Court.  A case can be made that Justine was infected when she was Bianca's prisoner.. Or depending on how far you want to push Nemesis long term planning, she was infected before she got the attention of Lord Raith to be kine for his son, whom he didn't wish well.  Or if you buy that Lord Raith has some connection to the Outsiders, we know from White Night that some of them did, he or one of them may have arranged her infestation thinking long term..

GP is a possibility, but that's even earlier than Nemesis admits to in BG.

He didn't admit to anything, he said...

"How long?"  I asked.  "How long have you been in Justine?"
Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture.  "Mortal time is such a limited concept.  A few years.  Ever since she became close to Lara."

She became close at the end of Blood Rites because Lara felt she owed her for what she did for Thomas.  Noe Nemesis could have come out as said that, but he didn't, "mortal time is such a vague concept."  What does that mean?  Almost everyone here likes the time travel angle to the story, or a time travel angle.. "Mortal time is such a vague concept," means on his time line, not Harry's time line.. In other words, it isn't something that can be pinned down.

Does Lara hire people who can feign harmlessness as a shield?  Sure, seems very White Court of her to value brains over brawn.  It's even more in Lara's character to have an aide that's particularly protected from her backstabbing frenemies via True Love.

Yet Justine was busy back stabbing away feeding information to Harry when he needed it.

[Basil]

Our facts:

(1)  We know that Justine and Thomas shared true love at end of Blood Rites (or shortly thereafter). 
(2)  Justine's hair was able to burn Madeline Raith at Club Zero during Turn Coat and she had to wear a rubber suit (yow!) to interact with Thomas.
(3)  At the conclusion of Ghost Story, Justine breaks Thomas' hunger strike with a clever plan.  Harry and Uriel witness Justine's explanation of this plan.  Uriel is amused at Harry's discomfort but makes no mention of any ... issue with Justine.

** Nemesis Infection Occurs **

(4)  Justine is brought inside of Demonreach's defenses during Cold Days, just before Nemfected Maeve brags to Mab that killing her might give the Mantle to some ally of Maeve/Nemesis. 
(5)  Justine becomes pregnant at some point just before Peace Talks.  This gives Justine the insurance she needs to manipulate Thomas into doing her bidding. 
(6)  Justine reveals that she is Nemfected and had planned to trick Harry into passing her through Demonreach's defenses to "visit" Thomas. 

My Assumptions:
(1)  A controlled, Nem-fected person cannot exhibit the "true love" necessary to shield that person from a Raith. 
(2)  It would be odd for Uriel not to mention an issue with Justine; it seems impossible that Uriel would not notice the presence of Nemesis.  Seriously, if Uriel can't do this -- and he is just one tier down from TWG -- there is no way that Rashid can.  This event also occurred after Harry DEMANDED and Uriel agreed to give Harry enough information to make a fully informed decision as to whether to "go back." 

Conclusions:
(1)  Justine was not infected until right after Ghost Story.  It may be that breaking her "true love" protection that gave Nemesis a way in. 

Justine would always have been a person of interest to Nemesis.  She is essentially a "Privy Secretary" to the White Queen and is good friends with the Warden of Demonreach.  In religious circles it is believed that being insane, doing drugs and playing with the occult create opportunities for possession.  I think it's even mentioned in Small Favor.  Justine kind of did all three of those things -- she's mentally ill; tried to control it with drugs (legal and illegal); hangs out with vampires and wizards and worse. 

(2)  Justine was already infected during Cold Days.  Apparently, one aim of Nemesis is to get behind the defenses of Demonreach.  Now that Harry has learned how to make the defenses more "active," she has to trick Harry into doing so.  I don't believe that the Spirit of the Island can act against a guest of Harry.  However, during Cold Days its possible that she could have exploited Maeve's and Lilly's death ... had Molly not been present to intercept the Lady's mantle. 

[Second Aristh]

But whether or not he was feeding on her isn't the point.. He couldn't even touch her without getting burned after Blood Rites.  Not sure which book it was or story, but Harry meets them in a bar and is surprised that Thomas has his arm around her, the answer then was a rubber skin suit for her.. Why? When a one night stand with anyone would have solved their problem?

Probably club Zero in TC you're thinking about.  Meh, it wasn't enough of a problem to risk Justine's protection.  They wouldn't have known for sure that it would have come back before they tested it.

Mostly we have speculation, Aurora is a better example, we all agree for the most part that she was infected by Summer Knight.. But how and who?  Speculation, that it was Elaine, but no actual proof or even clues unless you buy she was infected when she fled Justin's house and found refuge at the Summer Court. 

Aurora is an exception as a semi-major character where we don't have a good sense of where or when her infection came from.  It's hard to give clues about when it happened when she was already infected when Harry met her.  If it was Elaine, it'll surely come up when we get to the bottom of her story.

A case can be made that Justine was infected when she was Bianca's prisoner.. Or depending on how far you want to push Nemesis long term planning, she was infected before she got the attention of Lord Raith to be kine for his son, whom he didn't wish well.  Or if you buy that Lord Raith has some connection to the Outsiders, we know from White Night that some of them did, he or one of them may have arranged her infestation thinking long term..

He didn't admit to anything, he said...

Nemesis admitted to a vague period of time.  He's an Outsider, counting time like a mortal isn't his thing.  Could he have been off or lying?  Sure, but it's harder to motivate lying to Harry when Nemesis is planning on killing him imminently.

She became close at the end of Blood Rites because Lara felt she owed her for what she did for Thomas.  Noe Nemesis could have come out as said that, but he didn't, "mortal time is such a vague concept."  What does that mean?  Almost everyone here likes the time travel angle to the story, or a time travel angle.. "Mortal time is such a vague concept," means on his time line, not Harry's time line.. In other words, it isn't something that can be pinned down.

Okay, time travel shenanigans could change things.  Kinda wrecks the speculation game if you go with the assumption that the words on the page tell you nothing, though.  Nemesis answering Harry's question with a general period is Occam's answer.

Yet Justine was busy back stabbing away feeding information to Harry when he needed it.

Are you saying that Justine helping Harry is evidence that Justine was already infected?  I don't follow the line of thought here.

[Second Aristh]

(2)  It would be odd for Uriel not to mention an issue with Justine; it seems impossible that Uriel would not notice the presence of Nemesis.  Seriously, if Uriel can't do this -- and he is just one tier down from TWG -- there is no way that Rashid can.  This event also occurred after Harry DEMANDED and Uriel agreed to give Harry enough information to make a fully informed decision as to whether to "go back." 

Hmm, this one is hard to explain.  It's well after Justine became Lara's aide, so after Nemesis's claim.  I think it's easier to call this a plot hole than to try to explain why Nemesis would lie about the timeline.  Handwave that Nemesis is very hard to detect, and Uriel can't put too much power into doing things because he'd break reality.  A mortal can't take the amount of attention from him required to detect Nemesis.

Justine would always have been a person of interest to Nemesis.  She is essentially a "Privy Secretary" to the White Queen and is good friends with the Warden of Demonreach.  In religious circles it is believed that being insane, doing drugs and playing with the occult create opportunities for possession.  I think it's even mentioned in Small Favor.  Justine kind of did all three of those things -- she's mentally ill; tried to control it with drugs (legal and illegal); hangs out with vampires and wizards and worse. 

The White Queen's secretary is an attractive target, but Justine wasn't born that way.  She wasn't worth Nemesis collecting until it was clear that she'd be in that position.  So at least post-BR, but I think more likely between WN and PT.  Specifically, the lead up to Even Hand at the moment.

[forumghost]

"Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?"

I mean I'd like to think that Thomas, as a White Court vamp, would have...

Oh wait, you mean about Nemesis.

[groinkick]

I forgot which short story it was but Justine had been captured by the Fomor, and held captive.  She escaped but I'm wondering if it was because she'd been Nemfected, and the escape was faked

[Second Aristh]

I forgot which short story it was but Justine had been captured by the Fomor, and held captive.  She escaped but I'm wondering if it was because she'd been Nemfected, and the escape was faked

Even Hand, the one from Marcone's point of view.

[groinkick]

Even Hand, the one from Marcone's point of view.

yeah that one.  Seems like the perfect cover for Nemesis to get It's hooks into her.

[Second Aristh]

yeah that one.  Seems like the perfect cover for Nemesis to get It's hooks into her.

That was my conclusion for the current most likely candidate if we assume that the infection happens basically during an in-text event.

[groinkick]

That was my conclusion for the current most likely candidate if we assume that the infection happens basically during an in-text event.

I still really want to know how Nemfection happens.  What is It limited to with regards to how it infects someone?