The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Notes on Contagion

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The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 05, 2021, 05:10:23 AM ---I don't know about some of that, but Beside identified as male in BG as "He Who Walks Beside". We've heard him talk through three hosts, and two were female, but that seems to be more due to the power structure we've seen in the Dresden Files.
--- End quote ---
eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..


--- Quote ---We've seen Behind briefly occupy a woman (Madge), and what was likely Before occupy a man (Vitto), and then Before later in what may have been a male body (Sharkface). So it just seemed to be that they use what they have to work with.

--- End quote ---
Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦‍♂️😤🤷‍♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.

**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer

Griffyn612:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 05, 2021, 08:43:04 PM ---eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..
Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦‍♂️😤🤷‍♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.

**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer

--- End quote ---
All I'm suggesting is that the Walkers have each identified themselves as male, and in BR, their master is referred to as Lord.

I honestly don't think gender plays any role for them at all. Maybe if the series were being narrated by Harriet Dresden, they would have identified themselves as She. Maybe they've translated something complex to Harry in the same way Bob had to boil down quantum theory to throwing a rock. He just hears "He" because he is used to gender identity.

I think Titania calls nemesis "it". So I'd go gender neutral or male, based on the language of the books.

But trying to make a case for female identity due to a theoretical association to Rhamnousia (Greek goddess Nemesis' other name, to avoid confusion) doesn't seem like a sound basis for theory crafting.

After all, if Beside/Nemesis had ever been Greek Rhamnousia/Nemesis, using that name to refer to her/it/him would be pointless.

The_Sibelis:
How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.

Griffyn612:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 05, 2021, 10:02:32 PM ---How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.

--- End quote ---
If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".

Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 05, 2021, 10:57:00 PM ---If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".

Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.

--- End quote ---
the Sidhe tend to be more correct in their grammer of course, but that doesn't mean we don't have it wrong on our end, we just saw a 'she' or the vessel she used that let her manifest as Nemesis was itself female. If Beside comes into power through Justine I think what the general world will refer to 'it' as, would be vastly different than say if it's born into her male child. We already have an example of this, Drakul. He's clearly in a male body, but this in the know call him a creature and 'it'. 'It' all night be down to a certain prejudice of view. Despite becoming male, they still perceive him as the original unisex being. Mythology still perceives him as male though.
*Speculatively, perhaps Nemesis the Goddess is connected to one of the mantles still floating around and she's specifically trying to mirror it to become it's vessel?
** Old manifestations would still possess similar attributes of course. When Molly's use of fear was tempered to fall into grey areas of magic that didn't break free will, she suddenly resembled the winter lady enough to don the mantle. And the idea of such old manifestations being fed into the table of course, comes up with Mabs scales.

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