Author Topic: Mac's identity  (Read 10608 times)

Offline Griffyn612

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Mac's identity
« on: August 01, 2021, 09:18:10 PM »
I've mentioned before that I think Mac is the transubstantiated form of the archangel Raphael, and that he gave his Grace to Merlin in order to build Demonreach similar to how Raphael made Dudael as an earthly prison for Azazel, and that Alfred is a construct -- or "vessel", as he calls himself -- to hold the Grace.

That's a quick summary, but I'm sure the posts are somewhere.

Anywho, I just posted elsewhere that Maeve seemed to know Justine was infected in Cold Days. She even said in her victory speech that if she died, the mantle would go to a "hapless mortal" (Molly) or "an instrument of some foe of [Mab's]" (Justine).

The whole reason Justine was there was to act as insurance to keep Maeve alive or keep the Lady mantle out of the rotation.

Since Justine was there for a specific reason, it stands that Mac was too. They weren't just kidnapped earlier and then brought along for no reason.

I posit that Mac was there because of his relationship with the island prison. I think part of the gambit was to put Mac in jeopardy, in hopes that the island would act to save him, or he'd take the Grace back to save himself, or his death would weaken the defenses.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2021, 06:51:16 AM »
It's a very interesting idea. 

Maeve commented that his presence there was ironic before shooting him.  I wonder what was ironic about it (his grace being where he'd die?).  He has fast healing (his wrists healed from the ropes, and the gunshot wound after Mab removed the bullet).  He told Murphy he was out before passing out when she asked what he was. 

I'm not sure his grace is tied to the Island but it may be.  Him not healing while the bullet was inside but did heal after Mab removed it does suggest he may be connected to the Sidhe in some way as the bullet would neutralize a Fairy's healing abilities.

I do think he's part of the Angel's but not sure how exactly.  Could he be a Fallen who's actually not a bad guy?  Jim did say some of the Fallen were people who sat on the fence and chose not to fight.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 07:05:01 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 02:14:47 PM »
Quote

I do think he's part of the Angel's but not sure how exactly.  Could he be a Fallen who's actually not a bad guy?  Jim did say some of the Fallen were people who sat on the fence and chose not to fight.

I think he is one of the Fallen who fell because he liked the human ladies... He broke the rules by having sex with them if I understand my research correctly, so he cannot go back to Heaven but he isn't exactly evil either.

This is what I think Mac is;
Quote
The New American Bible commentary draws a parallel to the Epistle of Jude and the statements set forth in Genesis, suggesting that the Epistle refers implicitly to the paternity of Nephilim as heavenly beings who came to earth and had sexual intercourse with women.

Also this from Genesis
Quote
“When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the Lord said, ‘My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.’

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

I think that plan ran into problems and the Nephilim fell as a result, so it is possible that this what Mac is or the son of..
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 02:25:10 PM by Mira »

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2021, 06:45:56 PM »
Personally in the Nephilim camp. Mac's a father- evidence his speech to Harry.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2021, 07:01:41 PM »
I'm sold on the Mac = Raphael sans Grace theory, tbh.  Mac taking back the Grace as a temptation to keep from being killed could be a long shot move in order to tempt the angel into releasing the prisoners from under Demonreach.  Not necessarily something that would be expected, but its better for your moves to have multiple victory conditions you can meet if you can arrange it.  That's what Mab did there, too.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline Kindler

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2021, 04:08:28 PM »
I'm not sure Mac could have completely transubstantiated and still match with what we've seen in the books. When Uriel lent his Grace to Michael in Skin Game and started bleeding, there's no mention of the cut healing, and I think Uriel has to stem the blood.
I'm firmly in the "Mac was an antediluvian Watcher who Fell because he sired at least one child with a human" camp, but you do raise an interesting counterproposal. It does indeed seem strange that Mac was brought to Demonreach. Harry's connection with Mac is pretty damn loose. It'd be like kidnapping Jason Bourne's barber, wouldn't it? Of course he'd try to get him back, but it's not like Harry's relationship with Mac is extremely close or anything. I've at least never gotten that sense.
Molly, Carlos, Murphy, Susan (pre-death, obviously), Maggie, Michael, Thomas, Butters, Luccio... all of them would make better motivating targets to use against Harry. Mac's on the list, but he's somewhere near the middle at best, in my opinion. And Justine alone would've been plenty to use as a hostage. Sarilla makes sense too, for the reasons you mentioned—good to have the backup vessels at hand, and that's all shown clearly.
So why Mac? There's something to it, I completely agree.
I see two possibilities that can fit. First is your theory: I could be totally wrong, and Mac indeed used his Grace to help build Demonreach. "Raphael" would fit, at least in terms of the name's meaning, which literally means "God heals," (Hebrew origin) so that meshes well with the one supernatural ability Mac's demonstrated on the page. "McAnally" means "Son of the poor man" (Gaelic origin), if anyone's interested.
To continue in this vein, I'll ask an absurd question: what if Demonreach (the genius loci itself/Alfred, not the prison or the Island) is Mac's old Grace? When Lasciel and Harry had a "baby," it became a spirit of Intellect. Angels themselves are specifically mentioned as possessing Intellectus during the explanation in Turn Coat:
Quote
"Intellectus," I said. "Um. It's a mode of existence for a very few rare and powerful supernatural beings—angels have it. I'm willing to bet Mother Winter and Mother Summer have it. For beings with intellectus, all reality exists in one piece, one place, one moment, and they can look at the whole thing." (Turn Coat, page 281 on Nook).
The interesting part to me is that Intellectus is described in two completely different ways in the same paragraph. I underlined and bolded the part that's relevant to me: if it is indeed a "mode of existence" (rather than something an entity possesses), that indicates, to me, that Intellectus is a state more than it is a capability. Harry's experience with it is one that is shared, not something Harry himself has.
So in this adjacent theory, I think you're mostly right, but I'd posit that the Demonreach entity was born of Mac's Grace, rather than something he lent to Merlin (the way Uriel lent his to Michael). That very well might have been what allowed Merlin to construct the prison across time; because he was working with Grace, which (going by Harry's words) is a mode of existence that experiences time all at once, all he had to do was form some kind of thaumaturgic connection between the Grace and the physical location. That connection would need to be strong, but not necessarily ultra complicated, which is kinda how Bob describes the runes Harry has him examine, if I recall correctly—the complexity comes from them overlapping across time, I think, not from anything native to the wards themselves.
Possibility number two goes back to Mac being one of the Watchers. The Book of Enoch states that the angels who sired the Nephilim Fell, and were "bound in the valleys of the Earth," until Judgment Day.
Wild theory: what if the prison of Demonreach was the location in which those Fallen angels were bound? I posited in another thread that 8-10k years ago, Chicago was the bottom of a lake, carved out by retreating glaciers, and that Chicago may very well be the valley described Enoch. Demonreach itself is even further below Chicago (Chicago Under Chicago, maybe, the opposite to Chicago Over Chicago depicted in Summer Knight). Mac, a Watcher, sired a Nephilim with a human, and in order to avoid permanent bondage in Demonreach, chose to transubstantiate. His Grace instead was caught and imprisoned there. It's also hypothetically possible in this wild theory that "out" literally means "out of prison," meaning Mac escaped Demonreach, maybe by leaving his Grace behind as ballast (the way Santa stays behind in Cold Days while Harry and the Wild Hunt head to the Island). It's possible there'd be a reaction if Mac is injured so close to his imprisoned Grace, or maybe the "attack" on the prison was somehow using the connection between Mac and his Grace.
Well, anyway, I'm at least glad we can think about this for real rather than throwing out WMGs about what Mac even is. I remember someone claiming (maybe on here, maybe elsewhere; it was many years ago) that Mac was the original Mother Summer, who abdicated. When it's obvious that that title belongs to Mrs. Spunkelcrief.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2021, 02:46:03 AM »
I don't see Mac as one of the Big Names like Raphael. Possibly a Grigori - watchers sent to Earth, partied it up, fathered the Nephilim, and were told "Don't come back". They are not banned to Hell, and I don't know they are jailed or bound to any one place.  Uriel could be running Mac as his observer, watching Harry. Mac is atoning for his misdeeds. hoping to return to Heaver. Think Uriel would employ one of those guys if he thought they were sincere and willing to work it off?

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2021, 03:59:48 PM »
I don't see Mac as one of the Big Names like Raphael. Possibly a Grigori - watchers sent to Earth, partied it up, fathered the Nephilim, and were told "Don't come back". They are not banned to Hell, and I don't know they are jailed or bound to any one place.  Uriel could be running Mac as his observer, watching Harry. Mac is atoning for his misdeeds. hoping to return to Heaver. Think Uriel would employ one of those guys if he thought they were sincere and willing to work it off?

Here's a fun thought.

Where does wizardry come from? My wife and I have long thought it was something like a recessive Changeling- wizards being later-generation descendants of Scions, and that's part of why they "harden" as they get older, and why using their power starts to constrict their choices.

What if the Grigori fathered wizardry? In that case, Mac is watching over his descendants.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2021, 04:30:08 PM »
Since Raphael was the archangel tapped with punishing the fallen Grigori, and was referred to as a watcher himself, my guess is that he was in charge of at least that group of Grigori, which is why their punishment fell to him, and why he might feel responsible for everything they did.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2021, 05:56:57 PM »
Since Raphael was the archangel tapped with punishing the fallen Grigori, and was referred to as a watcher himself, my guess is that he was in charge of at least that group of Grigori, which is why their punishment fell to him, and why he might feel responsible for everything they did.

Could be!  I'm pretty sure he is an Angel, and also a Fallen Watcher.  I guess the main question is he a Named Angel?  Someone from Theology. 

I wonder what Before meant when he said "You chose your road, Watcher, now lay in it" or words to that effect.  I wonder if Angels are immune to Outsiders, and that Heaven is in no danger from them.  So by saying that he was talking about how Mac fell, making himself vulnerable to the Outside like all those in the Inside.

I also wonder if Mab, as a mortal, was a love interest of Mac and why he fell?  I know the Fallen are probably supposed to be long before Mab as a mortal but she does seem to have affection for him. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2021, 09:31:20 PM »
First is your theory: I could be totally wrong, and Mac indeed used his Grace to help build Demonreach. "Raphael" would fit, at least in terms of the name's meaning, which literally means "God heals," (Hebrew origin) so that meshes well with the one supernatural ability Mac's demonstrated on the page. "McAnally" means "Son of the poor man" (Gaelic origin), if anyone's interested.
Or, if this is an accurate source, one origin of MacAnally means 'son of the chief bard or physician.'
https://forebears.io/surnames/mcanally

The angel who's name means "God Heals" or "God has healed" taking a name that means "son of the chief physician"...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2021, 10:12:54 PM »
I think he was the original Gate Keeper.

@groinkick

Quote
“You!” Sharkface snarled. “You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 229). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2021, 11:12:55 PM »
I think he was the original Gate Keeper.

@groinkick

Quote
“You!” Sharkface snarled. “You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 229). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line.  Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose.    :)
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2021, 03:39:44 AM »

I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line.  Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose.    :)

Oh I missed that!  Ok I'm really leaning towards Griff's theory.  Especially since Maeve said it was ironic that Mac would die on the Island (where in theory his grace is being used to power it).  Another possibility could be that the Angels watched the Outer Gates and also set up the Demon Reach prison.  They then handed over responsibility to mortal kind.  Mac could have been the angelic Warden of the place.

I think he was the original Gate Keeper.

@groinkick

That could also be true.  I was reading about the Gates of Heaven (I think there are 3).  Perhaps one of them leads to the Outside and it was Mac who as an Angel watched the Outer Gates.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 03:42:29 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Mac's identity
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2021, 05:38:48 AM »
Oh I missed that!  Ok I'm really leaning towards Griff's theory.  Especially since Maeve said it was ironic that Mac would die on the Island (where in theory his grace is being used to power it).  Another possibility could be that the Angels watched the Outer Gates and also set up the Demon Reach prison.  They then handed over responsibility to mortal kind.  Mac could have been the angelic Warden of the place.

That could also be true.  I was reading about the Gates of Heaven (I think there are 3).  Perhaps one of them leads to the Outside and it was Mac who as an Angel watched the Outer Gates.
I think it's also interesting that Mab calls Raphael the Demon Binder (I think it was in SmF?).  There are alternative explanations, but if you're gonna call something a demon binder in the DV, somebody giving the juice for Demonreach is probably a good fit for the nickname.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill