The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Carlos betray Dresden? Other things in the book
groinkick:
1. In Battle Ground, Carlos tells Dresden that the Council had voted him out, and sited his killing mortal during the battle. But that really doesn't convince me. Why? Because in Peace Talks, Eb informed Dresden that the Council was holding a vote to kick Harry out, and it didn't look good, and it was going to be voted on during the peace talks.
This is where I'm wondering if either Carlos betrayed Harry, or if Carlos is being manipulated. Eb told Harry that he should go and talk to Council members. Shake hands, and give his side of things. He thought Harry could swing the vote in his favor. But Harry couldn't because Carlos had already brought Harry on to his security detail. Not only that but Carlos was in charge of who he put on his team. So when Harry could have gone to speak to the Council to avoid being kicked out, he couldn't because he was on security detail thanks to Carlos.
It seems so suspicious that during the vote, Harry is kept away from defending himself because of a decision Carlos made. Coincidence? I don't think so.
2. Does the Council know something about Mab that Dresden is clueless about? Nemfected suspected? Two people told Harry that a big part of him being kicked out was Mab. Carlos said it started with Mab, and Eb said that him working with her was a factor.
I know that Mab isn't a "good person", but to my knowledge she protects reality from Outsiders, and even though she's pretty cold (lol), she's honest and as long as you aren't stupid enough to get caught in the Sidhe's web, you shouldn't have any problems. And yet here is Harry being considered a threat because he's her Knight. Why? What would make Harry so dangerous working for her? Is she a threat to the White Council? Their actions are out of her purview, unless they are messing around with Outsiders in which case she might just send Harry to take them down. But the Council is against Outsiders so it shouldn't be a factor. Eb mentioned Mab having a known warlock as a Lady (Molly). Again why would they care? To me it sounds like they know, or at least think they know Mab has been compromised. They are worried about her, and doing what they can to neutralize her mortal weapon.
3. Someone is moving chess pieces around (Odin)? Maybe it's just story plot, and I'm looking too much into this but here it goes. Harry was manipulated into being at the peace talks, in my opinion. He could have been defending himself at the Council but was unable to because of being brought on as security. So this leads to him being kicked out.
However if Harry had been with the Council, it would have been a disaster for Chicago because the Titan arrived and only Harry was able to lock her away. It's not only that though. The Titan had been betrayed by the other Starborn. If Maggie had been truly killed, Harry probably wouldn't have been able to bind her but he realized she wasn't because Mouse's body wasn't there. The Titan realized she'd been betrayed which indicates someone wanted Harry to lock her up, but who? Odin? Mab? Drakul?
I don't know what it means but it feels like one group (or person) is using Harry for important tasks while another group (or person) is doing what they can to isolate him, make him vulnerable. Or could it all be the same actor who's doing this?
Mira:
--- Quote ---1. In Battle Ground, Carlos tells Dresden that the Council had voted him out, and sited his killing mortal during the battle. But that really doesn't convince me. Why? Because in Peace Talks, Eb informed Dresden that the Council was holding a vote to kick Harry out, and it didn't look good, and it was going to be voted on during the peace talks.
This is where I'm wondering if either Carlos betrayed Harry, or if Carlos is being manipulated. Eb told Harry that he should go and talk to Council members. Shake hands, and give his side of things. He thought Harry could swing the vote in his favor. But Harry couldn't because Carlos had already brought Harry on to his security detail. Not only that but Carlos was in charge of who he put on his team. So when Harry could have gone to speak to the Council to avoid being kicked out, he couldn't because he was on security detail thanks to Carlos.
It seems so suspicious that during the vote, Harry is kept away from defending himself because of a decision Carlos made. Coincidence? I don't think so.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, don't forget that Carlos secretly put that tracking device on Harry in the first chapter of Peace Talks. I think Carlos did betray Harry, but I also think he was manipulated by someone. It isn't for nothing that Jim wrote that little short story where Carlos gets mauled by Molly. That sets the stage, injured and God knows how badly his pride was hurt by this, someone could easily manipulate a vulnerable Carlos into a pretty big grudge against Winter and convince him that one of his best friends a monster.
--- Quote ---2. Does the Council know something about Mab that Dresden is clueless about? Nemfected suspected? Two people told Harry that a big part of him being kicked out was Mab. Carlos said it started with Mab, and Eb said that him working with her was a factor.
I know that Mab isn't a "good person", but to my knowledge she protects reality from Outsiders, and even though she's pretty cold (lol), she's honest and as long as you aren't stupid enough to get caught in the Sidhe's web, you shouldn't have any problems. And yet here is Harry being considered a threat because he's her Knight. Why? What would make Harry so dangerous working for her? Is she a threat to the White Council? Their actions are out of her purview, unless they are messing around with Outsiders in which case she might just send Harry to take them down. But the Council is against Outsiders so it shouldn't be a factor. Eb mentioned Mab having a known warlock as a Lady (Molly). Again why would they care? To me it sounds like they know, or at least think they know Mab has been compromised. They are worried about her, and doing what they can to neutralize her mortal weapon.
--- End quote ---
Someone on the Council fears Mab, but what is weird about all of that is why Rashid said, that they are pretty clueless about what he or Winter does for that matter at the Gates. And it appears he at any rate is happy to keep it that way. Peabody may not be the only traitor on the Council, nor would I put it past that person to try and get rid of the one who could eventually sniff him or her out. That would be Harry.
--- Quote ---3. Someone is moving chess pieces around (Odin)? Maybe it's just story plot, and I'm looking too much into this but here it goes. Harry was manipulated into being at the peace talks, in my opinion. He could have been defending himself at the Council but was unable to because of being brought on as security. So this leads to him being kicked out.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, there are several that could be working the chess board, not just Odin, there is Uriel, Mab, possibly Titania.
--- Quote ---However if Harry had been with the Council, it would have been a disaster for Chicago because the Titan arrived and only Harry was able to lock her away. It's not only that though. The Titan had been betrayed by the other Starborn. If Maggie had been truly killed, Harry probably wouldn't have been able to bind her but he realized she wasn't because Mouse's body wasn't there. The Titan realized she'd been betrayed which indicates someone wanted Harry to lock her up, but who? Odin? Mab? Drakul?
--- End quote ---
Eb wanted him to go and defend himself at the Council, but he also wanted him on the security team. I don't see that as a problem so much as who suddenly was so hot to get rid of Harry at them moment? But all of that might have worked out except HWWB/Justine miscalculated and manipulated Thomas into that assassination attempt. Which revealed to Harry that Carlos had put that tracking device on him and he really didn't have any friends among the Wardens. I don't know if Ethinu had really been betrayed, because it was Molly that foresaw that someone would attempt to go after Maggie et all and moved them before Listen got there. Ethinu may have seen that as betrayal by Listen but it really wasn't, he was just tricked like the Black Riders in Lord of the Rings when Aragorn moved the Hobbits from their beds and put dummies in their place in Bree.
--- Quote ---I don't know what it means but it feels like one group (or person) is using Harry for important tasks while another group (or person) is doing what they can to isolate him, make him vulnerable. Or could it all be the same actor who's doing this?
--- End quote ---
Harry is seen as a weapon and both sides want to use him as such for their own aims.. Call it a quality of the starborn, but Harry doesn't manipulate very easily, once he figures out "why" he was conceived, he will make a decision as to what side he really is on.
Basil:
I don't think Carlos betrayed Harry. It is easy to construct a reasonable scenario where Carlos thought he was HELPING Harry.
(1) Carlos knows that Harry can barely control himself in front of the old fuddy-duddies on the Council.
(2) Carlos knows that Harry is at his best when he can engage in actions in support of the Council.
(3) Carlos and Harry's other friends devise a multi-pronged strategy to PROVE Harry is innocent of being "captured" by the monsters. This involves putting a tracker on Harry so that four Wardens can testify that he was just doing normal stuff. This involves making Harry an important liaison between the Council and the other supernatural nations at this important peace conference. This involves having Harry's closet friends and peers having a pseudo-intervention with him to make sure that Harry knew how important the vote is and how much pressure is on him (keep in mind, he doesn't understand the McCoy-Harry relationship's depth). Of course, much of Carlos' plan goes completely wrong.
Finally, when Carlos shows up to tell Harry the news, he's hoarse from shouting. Carlos defended Harry as much as he could and was shouting with the Council over the vote. He was Harry's closest friend and so he volunteers to give Harry the bad news. Again, this goes awry because Harry's is showing off his not quite human nature and he inadvertently threatens Carlos with Molly.
Indeed, Carlos has flipped on Harry -- but it's not a betrayal, it's much more tragic than that.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think Carlos betrayed Harry. It is easy to construct a reasonable scenario where Carlos thought he was HELPING Harry.
--- End quote ---
You can make that case, or rather perhaps say that Carlos didn't think he was betraying Harry. However when he secretly put that tracking device on Harry, he was betraying their friendship. At
least from Harry's point of view and so far Carlos hasn't disabused him of that notion. I also think that someone got to Carlos when he was recovering from his tangle with Molly.
--- Quote ---Finally, when Carlos shows up to tell Harry the news, he's hoarse from shouting. Carlos defended Harry as much as he could and was shouting with the Council over the vote. He was Harry's closest friend and so he volunteers to give Harry the bad news. Again, this goes awry because Harry's is showing off his not quite human nature and he inadvertently threatens Carlos with Molly.
--- End quote ---
Yes, he could be hoarse from shouting in defense of Harry, or just hoarse from the aftermath of the Battle of Chicago. I think it more the latter simply because wizards don't typically shout at one another, especially at a Council meeting.
--- Quote ---Indeed, Carlos has flipped on Harry -- but it's not a betrayal, it's much more tragic than that.
--- End quote ---
Time will tell, but with his friends all gone Carlos is isolated now, I can see a final showdown between him and Harry..
As far as the Council goes, I just came across something interesting in Battle Ground, if you want quotes it will have to wait, it's late and I need to sleep. Anyway in a conversation with Mab just after Murphy is killed Mab tells Harry that the only reason the Council has joined the fight against the Titan is they want the Eye of Baylor for themselves. When everything was over, the Council knew what Harry had done at some point he had the Eye.. Since he never turned it over to them, they figured I am assuming that he turned it over to Winter.. That pissed them off, Carlos told him as much when he told Harry he shouldn't sided with Mab and Winter.. They don't know of course that Harry didn't give it to anyone, it's still stashed on the island. One wonders though if at some point Mab and/or Lara will try to pressure him into giving it to them.
Also Carlos keeps telling Harry he should have talked to him... About what? Truth? "He can't handle the truth..." paraphrasing "A Few Good Men.."
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: groinkick on July 31, 2021, 12:09:58 AM ---Does the Council know something about Mab that Dresden is clueless about? Nemfected suspected? Two people told Harry that a big part of him being kicked out was Mab. Carlos said it started with Mab, and Eb said that him working with her was a factor.
I know that Mab isn't a "good person", but to my knowledge she protects reality from Outsiders, ... But the Council is against Outsiders so it shouldn't be a factor.
--- End quote ---
I don't think most of the council are aware of either the existence of Nemesis or Winter's role in defending the Gates. Rashid seemed to indicate that isn't shared with even all the other senior councilors unless they need to know, let alone general membership. Most of them just see the "Mab is not a good person" aspect.
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