The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Revisit this. Grey Counsel
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 03, 2021, 03:06:52 AM ---
* Harry Dresden
* Eb McCoy
* Donar Vadderung
* Elder Gruff
* River Shoulders
* Martha Liberty
* Carlos Ramirez
* Klaus the Toymaker
* Ivy the Archive
* Pinga
* Māui
* Mami Wata
* Sun Wukong the Monkey King
Likely not there
* Listens-to-Winds - was sick with Arianna's curse.
* Luccio - too weak and likely locked/occupied by Cristos.
* Gatekeeper - likely at the Gates since Mab and Lea were both preoccupied with Harry.
* Wild Bill & Yoshimo - likely locked up.
* Chandler - likely busy with the issues at headquarters.
* Elaine - Not in the inner circle.
* Cristos - nobody trusts him.
* Merlin, Ancient Mai - likely know of the GC, but wouldn't be members for reasons.
--- End quote ---
River Shoulders is a tad big, no? I get he can shapeshift but why bother? Can't rule him out altogether but I feel if he was going to fight he would have been in his Bigfoot guise. That's how he normally does it.
I can't see Ramirez being on the team. Eb picked the team and he doesn't seem all that close to him. He also would have many older, less brash and vulnerable, and more experienced wizards to choose from. Also, Ramirez has really bought in to the White Council ethos. He's starting to drink the Kool-Aid (although...he might be right according to Jim). So I think he would be very conflicted if not outright sell out the Grey Council. Also, wasn't he arrested by Cristos?
Can't say I agree with the Archive either. Molly felt Vadderung's presence as he was the most powerful being there, I am sure Molly would have mentioned if she felt a similarly powerful being. Not that Ivy is as powerful, but she's well up there. She also would have been a tad short I think around that time, she might have stood out. Not to mention, the Archive is neutral. She quite specifically didn't choose sides between the White Council and the Red Court. I am not even sure she could have participated, considering how much it cost her to give Harry information in that book.
Your last four options (Pinga, Maui, Mama Wata and Sun Wukong) are interesting choices. Why those four in particular, out of interest?
LtW could have recovered from his illness in time for the fight...but that's an important point. He was sick right after Arianna's visit, so it's entirely possible he isn't on it.
Luccio - could have recovered but same issue. Good pick up.
GK - yep, could have been at the Gates. Also could not have been. AFAIK there wasn't an attack at that time...and Mab could have been at the Gates herself. She only went to Tir Na Nog briefly.
WB & Y - similar issues to Ramirez
Chandler - same as above, plus almost never leaves the SC.
Merlin - doesn't need a GC because he has a Council already. Same for Cristos in some ways.
Ancient Mai - not a combat wizard.
--- Quote from: groinkick on July 16, 2021, 11:07:35 PM ---I could be wrong because I haven't touched up on the earlier books in a while but I'm pretty sure it's Winter who fights at the Gates, and Rashid is there to scan the injured who come through, for Nemesis is my guess. When he faced off against the vampires it was because they were ambushed, not because he was actively looking for combat from what I remember. Being dangerous doesn't just revolve around what you can do under a combat situation. Mike Tyson might be way more dangerous in a physical confrontation than a scientist, but a scientist who can create bioweapons is way more dangerous.
I'm not saying Rashid isn't capable of combat magic. He's got centuries of experience, and can probably do all kinds of crazy stuff. That said there is a difference between combat magic, and other forms of magic. The reason being that in a combat situation there is a measure of athleticism involved. You have to be quick, agile, and have endurance. I'm sure Rashid is quite capable, but he doesn't strike me as the type who'd fare well in a prolonged conflict where his physical body would be placed under quite a lot of stress. His magic might be able to hold up, but his body might not.
I don't remember for sure but I'm almost sure that at some point Jim said that Rashid uses as little magic as possible. He didn't go into detail, or explain why though.
Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim.... In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time. I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight... That is serious power right there.
--- End quote ---
I can't really see Rashid not getting into the fighting now and again if not all the time the battles are happening. But true enough, we don't have information either way. We'll have to wait for more information.
You're right about the idea behind dangerous. But then again, Jim has said his definition of power and Harry's definition are quite different. So Rashid doesn't have to be the most powerful to still be horribly dangerous in combat. Still though, he might be more of an assassin than a brawler or whatever.
You could be right about his body. But then again, Ebenezar doesn't seem to worried and he's about 300 years old. So it's a tricky one. Magic solves a lot of those issues too.
That's an interesting quote from Jim about Rashid - I'd love it if you know the source? No worries if not I will hunt for it. It's just a really intriguing statement.
Oh, I totally agree that part of what makes Rashid so dangerous is his ability to know the future. Hard to beat someone like that. But not impossible, clearly. Although I'd argue that knowing the future IS super powerful magic in some ways. Maybe not in terms of magical energy (although who knows) but it grants him knowledge that few mortals ever possess. Means he has the jump on a lot of situations. But power has purpose, so I'd imagine that eye seeing the future is important to beating the Outsiders. Not just Nemesis I'd imagine. Can Rashid alter time? Anymore than the rest of us with our choices? He has more informed choices but he still only would alter them the same way everyone else does, by choosing options. Unless you're saying he time-travels back and forward...but wouldn't that be breaking the Laws? I believe only one wizard has that privilege.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 03, 2021, 01:11:47 PM ---River Shoulders is a tad big, no? I get he can shapeshift but why bother? Can't rule him out altogether but I feel if he was going to fight he would have been in his Bigfoot guise. That's how he normally does it.
I can't see Ramirez being on the team. Eb picked the team and he doesn't seem all that close to him. He also would have many older, less brash and vulnerable, and more experienced wizards to choose from. Also, Ramirez has really bought in to the White Council ethos. He's starting to drink the Kool-Aid (although...he might be right according to Jim). So I think he would be very conflicted if not outright sell out the Grey Council. Also, wasn't he arrested by Cristos?
Can't say I agree with the Archive either. Molly felt Vadderung's presence as he was the most powerful being there, I am sure Molly would have mentioned if she felt a similarly powerful being. Not that Ivy is as powerful, but she's well up there. She also would have been a tad short I think around that time, she might have stood out. Not to mention, the Archive is neutral. She quite specifically didn't choose sides between the White Council and the Red Court. I am not even sure she could have participated, considering how much it cost her to give Harry information in that book.
Your last four options (Pinga, Maui, Mama Wata and Sun Wukong) are interesting choices. Why those four in particular, out of interest?
--- End quote ---
Regrading River, he's large, but in a cloak at a distance while purposefully concealing all of their identities, I think it could be fine.
Regarding Carlos, he's the only one that got away from Cristos, per Chandler. Harry also previously vouched for Carlos, and his Council turn didn't start until after Changes. And he was injured at some point even before the Molly story, and it being in action unseen at CI makes sense.
Regrading Ivy, again, it's a matter of acting in secret, so hiding her identity would be required. And Ivy is neutral for the Accords, but not if the Reds were deemed to be in violation. But her involvement does seem like a stretch, even to me.
Regarding the four unknowns, I just wanted to list some possibilities that could be different than the usual western suspects. Eb seems like the type to collect acquaintances with powerful beings, and those seem like the kind that would help.
There are others I'd like to see as well, but they don't fit as well.
Second Aristh:
As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1) Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2) They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)
I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list. Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies. Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin. Especially when he's worried about BC attention.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 03, 2021, 05:09:00 PM ---As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1) Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2) They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)
I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list. Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies. Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin. Especially when he's worried about BC attention.
--- End quote ---
I liked him for it for a while, but the more I look at it, the more it doesn't fit. Yes, he wants to root out the Black Council. But to risk being caught with a renegade group to do it seems unlike him.
And if it got out that the Merlin was violating the rules, it'd be more than just the end of his career. It'd jeopardy the council itself.
I see him as knowing about the GC, if not all the members. And I see him hoping they succeed, and even pointing them (like Harry) in the right direction if he needs to. But being an actual member? Not so much.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 03, 2021, 05:39:12 PM ---I liked him for it for a while, but the more I look at it, the more it doesn't fit. Yes, he wants to root out the Black Council. But to risk being caught with a renegade group to do it seems unlike him.
And if it got out that the Merlin was violating the rules, it'd be more than just the end of his career. It'd jeopardy the council itself.
I see him as knowing about the GC, if not all the members. And I see him hoping they succeed, and even pointing them (like Harry) in the right direction if he needs to. But being an actual member? Not so much.
--- End quote ---
Politically speaking, Langtry doesn't strike me as opposed to some risk when he has some levers to help control it. That was my impression in TC and Changes anyway. Plus the BC existing jeopardizes the WC anyway. It's a worthwhile risk to neutralize them.
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