The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Did Rashid kick Harry out of the White Council with an ulterior motive?

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Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Ed0517 on July 16, 2021, 07:18:39 AM ---have to assume he was planning on using magic, against the Rules.

--- End quote ---

Immobilizing someone with magic and cutting his throat with a small concealed knife is perfectly legal for the Council
. Or, for that matter, bashing his head in with any handily available rock.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Mira on July 16, 2021, 05:11:45 PM ---I think it is way more complicated than that.  Several things are revealed in Cold Days when Harry visits the Gates and Rashid.  1] Harry realizes that Rashid is one of very few who know who his mother was. 2] Rashid says the Gates are almost constantly under attack, some years worse than others. 3] He uses the word "we" again, as in "What we need is you" 4] Rashid tells Harry he can help him[Rashid] best by going back to Chicago and being himself.5] Rashid tells Harry he knows "precisely" how it feels to be where he is. 6] Rashid says he will settle matters as far as Harry's return "from the dead" with the Council. 7]  Most important, Rashid says;
So I take that to mean, if Rashid voted Harry out, it is because he needs him in Chicago on his own because the Council, who is almost clueless about his and Harry's roles as far as Winter is concerned, is cramping Harry's style.  In other words the next few steps that have to be taken by Harry to become what he needs to become to eventually confront the Enemy, he needs to take without someone[i.e. the Council] looking over his shoulder.  That's the best case I can see for Rashid voting him off, not because he fears that Harry has gone bad.  Otherwise, Rashid was away still guarding the Gates, which had just weathered a severe attack, and the Merlin abused his proxy.

Further, in my opinion when Rashid uses "we," he means himself and the Winter Court.  I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out that Rashid was in on the planning and bargaining with the Winter Court to pursued Margaret to conceive Harry, a star born in the first place.. Heck if Lea is his fae godmother, Rashid could very well be his godfather with sacred promises to Margaret to keep her son safe.  In his own special way, Rashid had done more over the series to protect and save Harry's bacon than even his grandfather.  And yes, I know Eb took up for Harry at his trial, but it doesn't sound like Eb was under the Doom with him.. Only to execute him if he appears to go warlock..

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Rashid also says some years it's quiet. But yes, that's the point I am making. If the Gatekeeper voted Harry out it isn't because he thinks Harry is a warlock, it's because he believes it's time for Harry to be free from the Council.

Grammatically, the "we" he uses implies he is including Harry and himself in that context. I think it's a given that should Winter not survive, neither of them will.

Assuming of course that Harry's birth as a starborn was planned etc. But yes, in such circumstances I too wouldn't be surprised if he were somehow involved. Yeah, Eb wasn't under the Doom. A bit of polite fiction there as Harry and others are not meant to know about the Blackstaff.


--- Quote from: Basil on July 16, 2021, 09:53:27 PM ---I don't think that Rashid voted to expel Harry, as I believe he would have been very busy at the Gates.  Considering differences in the flow of time, his part of the battle might not have been wrapped up by the time of the vote.  More likely, as per usual, Rashid failed to attend a meeting.  Merlin is pleased with this outcome because he gets an extra vote more often than not through the Council's proxy system.  In the end, we simply don't know at this point. 

But, I think the greater point is valid.  Rashid -- like Harry -- is "in", rather than "of" the Council.  Yes, Harry has been expelled; yes, Rashid is on the Senior Council.  But, they are both tourists essentially.  They have significant agendas that are necessarily above and beyond the concerns of the Council. 

All things being equal, each would prefer the Council be strong, united and a force for good.  However, each would happily go against the Council if it meant protecting Reality.  McCoy and even Merlin would also say the same; however, Merlin and McCoy think that what's good for the Council and what the Council thinks is good is essentially coextensive. 

Rashid, Harry and the readers know that the Council is often very parochial and far less informed than it believes. 

In fact, I'd say that McCoy and Merlin have different tactics, but actually share quite a bit of outlook. 

--- End quote ---
Time is relative. It could have been over sooner as well. It also depends on how quick the journey from the Outer Gates to Edinburgh is for Rashid. As you say though, we don't know enough. It's just a little theory. In any case, I doubt he is upset about Harry being "out" now. He predicted that Harry and the Council would go head-to-head one day. This is a big step in that direction.

I think that's fair about their roles. Harry and Rashid are far more important than the Council in the big picture. But I suspect that was originally what the Council was for - to take on all that responsibility. Along the way it's gotten corrupt and greedy and lazy, all the things that happen as organisations get too big. It's time for a reset one way or another.

Oh yes, I do think Langtry and McCoy want the same thing largely but have very different methods and ideologies. I suspect the relationship is similar to Harry and Marcone. It might even be that Marcone, if he gave up his Coin, could become the new Merlin to Harry's Gatekeeper/Blackstaff one day. But who knows if the Council will even exist much longer. I doubt Harry would want to be in it or keep it going. And Marcone is being set up as a major villain so unless that changes a lot I can't see them working together in the future. But then again, McCoy and Langtry fought on opposite sides in the French-Indian war.


--- Quote from: Ed0517 on July 17, 2021, 09:09:11 AM ---Yuillegan - I was not saying Rashid could not kill Harry - I was saying he could not kill Harry without a weapon that is not shown, or using magic against the Rules - which is what I referred to when I said he (Rashid) walks his own path - beyond the rules. I'm not sure even Eb or Langtry could stand against Rashid.

And I wasn't saying he would kick him out for being linked to the WCV as a BAD thing, but cutting him loose he may have to get allies like the WCV and being Winter Knight he brings the WCV closer to Winter. Not driving him away because you are against him - but putting him in the position where he becomes a liaison between the other two signatories. A job he likely does not take if he is still Council, and a regional commander of the Wardens. He has bigger jobs to do.

--- End quote ---
Ah fair enough. I misunderstood you. Yeah I am not sure they could either - but then again I doubt they would fight in the first place.

That's an interesting theory. Publicly distancing themselves from Harry but relying on his diplomatic status and relationships to strengthen their own. Bad way to do it though as Harry is clearly pissed about it. They haven't really given much incentive for Harry to cooperate.


--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on July 18, 2021, 10:34:09 PM ---I mean if it comes time to kill somebody, he walks around with a great big stick and is quite good at knocking people out with sleep spells.

--- End quote ---
Or any other number of questionable methods. Immobilization, disorientation (in a dangerous environment), enchanted weaponry (like a gun with magic bullets etc). As long as his intent with the spell isn't to kill, he can get away with a lot. Which I think is rather what Maggie was going on about with her activism/rebellion.


--- Quote from: Snark Knight on July 19, 2021, 07:33:40 PM ---Immobilizing someone with magic and cutting his throat with a small concealed knife is perfectly legal for the Council
. Or, for that matter, bashing his head in with any handily available rock.

--- End quote ---
Exactly. I think that Jim made a point a while back about how the Laws don't really correspond to "good" and "evil" in the first place.

I suspect this is how one could still practice black magic and not break the rules. Perhaps even become a minor warlock. I doubt the fundamental universal rules for black magic and it's taint care about the White Council's seven Laws of Magic.

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