How hard did Ebenezar try to kill Lord Raith?

[morriswalters]

I posted that for fun. 

Would the US Government use a hellfire missile on our ground? Sure they would if they thought they had to.  They've used them everywhere else on other nations sovereign territory. But Jim just described an attack on American soil by a foreign government that killed 80,000. We've gone to war twice for casualties much less than that.  Ford and GM would be manufacturing Thorn Manacles and Cal Tech researching magic suppression devices.  But Jim's a better writer than that.

[Arjan]

I posted that for fun. 

Would the US Government use a hellfire missile on our ground? Sure they would if they thought they had to.  They've used them everywhere else on other nations sovereign territory. But Jim just described an attack on American soil by a foreign government that killed 80,000. We've gone to war twice for casualties much less than that.  Ford and GM would be manufacturing Thorn Manacles and Cal Tech researching magic suppression devices.  But Jim's a better writer than that.

I don’t think you can make these things with mundane technology.

[groinkick]

I posted that for fun. 

Would the US Government use a hellfire missile on our ground? Sure they would if they thought they had to.  They've used them everywhere else on other nations sovereign territory. But Jim just described an attack on American soil by a foreign government that killed 80,000. We've gone to war twice for casualties much less than that.  Ford and GM would be manufacturing Thorn Manacles and Cal Tech researching magic suppression devices.  But Jim's a better writer than that.

It would be like admitting that we'd been attacked by UFO's without any real evidence of them other than some damage done.  The government would simply blame terrorists, with unknown origin with the promise to get them.  People would quickly lose interest in it, and worry about something more serious like The Bachelor, or a trending Tik Tok video. 

Only those at the very top would know what was going on and would be trying to figure out what we were facing before launching an attack.  They have no idea how to measure the weapons, and capabilities of the threat.  The likely response would be "more firepower".  Troops would be moved to populated area's ad a show of strength, and preparedness. 

The most top top secret agents would attempt to detain anyone with supernatural abilities for the purpose of interrogating them.  I would not be surprised if some injured baddies were detained after the attack.

[Mira]

It would be like admitting that we'd been attacked by UFO's without any real evidence of them other than some damage done.  The government would simply blame terrorists, with unknown origin with the promise to get them.

 They have to be careful there though, people panic, people jump to conclusions, more conspiracy theories, and more innocent people become targets.

[vincentric]

So you're suggesting the Library of Congress would convince the US Military to start throwing about drone strikes on US soil against Civilian targets because "Trust us guys, Vamires and Wizards are for real."

I don't think that's going to fly.

Why would they need drones and hellfire missiles? The Librarians wouldn't need that against any lone wizard Kincaid may be the best but there are dozens of Special Forces snipers that could make the shot that took out Harry. And they'd go in to confirm the kill rather than leaving because they have the manpower to cordon off the area for the five or so minutes that it would take.

The US military is too blunt an instrument for this but the US Intelligence Agencies(which is the heading the Librarians would fall under) would be all over this and they are really scary.

Plus as Harry as said throughout the books, the Supernatural World needs secrecy because while mortals are weak individually, they outnumber the monsters by a huge factor. Without the Eye, Ethniu would have been the only survivor if they were out in the open when the helicopter squadron showed up. Casualties in a war would be horrendous but humanity took down the Black Court with torches and pitchforks. We've come a long way since then, the numbers advantage is even more heavily in our favor and the Supernatural really hasn't changed much.

[vultur]

Why would they need drones and hellfire missiles? The Librarians wouldn't need that against any lone wizard Kincaid may be the best but there are dozens of Special Forces snipers that could make the shot that took out Harry.

Eb's protections are likely much better than Harry's; IIRC his robes have an effect like Harry's duster, but protecting his whole body, not just what the enchanted fabric covers. (And that sniper rifle would not have killed Harry if he'd had his duster on...)

Going after Eb in his home, I doubt drones would be enough. That farm's probably got wards against pretty much every possible form of attack.

Plus as Harry as said throughout the books, the Supernatural World needs secrecy because while mortals are weak individually, they outnumber the monsters by a huge factor.

That's true for most of the mortal-world-inhabiting factions, such as the Council and Vampire Courts. It's not quite universal, though...

Without the Eye, Ethniu would have been the only survivor if they were out in the open when the helicopter squadron showed up.

Not really, there were Immortals around, missiles won't kill them. And I'd expect top end wizard shields - eg Senior Council or really experienced Wardens - to block anything below nuclear level, given what Harry's shield has withstood when "powered up" (eg explosions at end of WN, Lily's metal-melting fire wave in CD). River Shoulders probably has equal or better power level, in a different way (diffusing the energy?) Etc.

[vincentric]

I was mostly referring to the invading Formor army when speaking of the helicopter attack but I'll stand by it while pointing out the exceptions.

Ethniu, Vadderung, Harry, Eb, Corb, Cristos, Marcone, Ivy and Ramirez can shield.( Ferro isn't there, neither is Martha Liberty)

Mab, Molly, Titania and the Erlking are gonna go down temporarily, there's just too much steel flying about.

Everybody else from either army is gonna be really, really dead.

So we go from, two armies with 15K or so total fighting to a couple of handfuls of the elite. And that's what'll happen in non ambush scenario of supernatural vs military. Even if the magical forces can lead off with hexes, enough soldiers with rifles will eventually overwhelm them Horrific casualty exchange rate, yes, but an aroused and motivated humanity wins.

[Arjan]

The big guns can simply retreat to the nevernever taking some of their people with them.

[TheCuriousFan]

I was mostly referring to the invading Formor army when speaking of the helicopter attack but I'll stand by it while pointing out the exceptions.

Ethniu, Vadderung, Harry, Eb, Corb, Cristos, Marcone, Ivy and Ramirez can shield.( Ferro isn't there, neither is Martha Liberty)

Mab, Molly, Titania and the Erlking are gonna go down temporarily, there's just too much steel flying about.

Everybody else from either army is gonna be really, really dead.

So we go from, two armies with 15K or so total fighting to a couple of handfuls of the elite. And that's what'll happen in non ambush scenario of supernatural vs military. Even if the magical forces can lead off with hexes, enough soldiers with rifles will eventually overwhelm them Horrific casualty exchange rate, yes, but an aroused and motivated humanity wins.

That sort of logic is why any hypothetical war with humanity is going to revolve around sneak attacks rather than straight brawling. All the fancy toys in the world don't matter if the bases are withering on the vine because of infrastructure collapse as one example.

[The_Sibelis]

I actually suspect it's a bigger issue of the Black Staff's power VS whatever Raith has for protection. It didn't just stop his attacks, it stopped them from even manifesting. So say he tried to drop a satellite, didn't move. Massive volcano, misfired. Earthquake, hits the wrong area. It... Entropies his entropic(subtractive, deadly, whatever it is) magic. It specifically negates the blackstaff's ability. And Eb, being so wrapped up in who he is with it he never considered trying anything else. Old Wizards, brittle, stuck in their ways..

[vincentric]

That sort of logic is why any hypothetical war with humanity is going to revolve around sneak attacks rather than straight brawling. All the fancy toys in the world don't matter if the bases are withering on the vine because of infrastructure collapse as one example.

That's assuming only the supernatural side gets to sneak attack. Yes, the nations that dwell in the NeverNever are gonna have an advantage but the ones based in reality have security problems also. We invaded and occupied a foreign nation over 5000 deaths in a terrorist attack. If something like Chicago happened, thre Formor would be seeing some nuclear torpedoes headed their way and most other nations wouldn't bat an eye.

[Arjan]

That's assuming only the supernatural side gets to sneak attack. Yes, the nations that dwell in the NeverNever are gonna have an advantage but the ones based in reality have security problems also. We invaded and occupied a foreign nation over 5000 deaths in a terrorist attack. If something like Chicago happened, thre Formor would be seeing some nuclear torpedoes headed their way and most other nations wouldn't bat an eye.

If they know where to aim. War with the supernatural world start with an intelligence problem.

[vincentric]

If they know where to aim. War with the supernatural world start with an intelligence problem.

Agreed, and humanity is behind in that respect. But you can bet there will be a major effort to catch up and it won't take long. For starters all those "Black Cat" files will get major reviews and probably a Federal agency to coordinate and collate them. One with full access to spy satellites and facial tracking

[Arjan]

Agreed, and humanity is behind in that respect. But you can bet there will be a major effort to catch up and it won't take long. For starters all those "Black Cat" files will get major reviews and probably a Federal agency to coordinate and collate them. One with full access to spy satellites and facial tracking

How do you catch up with magic? Those black cat files are mostly about the lesser mooks. Those will be sacrificed to give humanity the idea that they have won.

Satellites can be sabotaged with magic and modern technology is vulnerable to magic.

But different groups will have a different level of success. Most will just hide and use their magic to frustrate efforts to find and identify them.

Disrupt society, compromise officials, target dangerous individuals, destroy information…

Why anything that even looks like an open battle? That is not the supernaturals strongest point.

[TheCuriousFan]

That's assuming only the supernatural side gets to sneak attack. Yes, the nations that dwell in the NeverNever are gonna have an advantage but the ones based in reality have security problems also. We invaded and occupied a foreign nation over 5000 deaths in a terrorist attack. If something like Chicago happened, thre Formor would be seeing some nuclear torpedoes headed their way and most other nations wouldn't bat an eye.

I think that the ones with more intel, literal precognition and a bunch of already subverted agents will have a slight advantage in terms of initiative when it comes to guerilla warfare.