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Author Topic: Mab Lying to Demonreach  (Read 12417 times)

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2021, 07:11:02 AM »
Quote from: Arjan on April 05, 2021, 11:22:01 AM
Mab was quite explicit in what she wants. She wants a knight that shares her purpose. From what we know about her purpose she will probably get it.

She also has her ideas about what makes an effective knight just as she has ideas about what makes an effective winter lady. She will get a more effective team but not in the way she thinks.

Uriel is not bound to the truth in any way we know, he is bound to his purpose and he has a certain reputation. I would not take what he says at face value either.

Well look at it this way.  If Uriel was wrong, then his words would have been nothing more than to comfort Harry before Mab turned him into her monster.

So either he's correct, and Mab's words were lies, or he wasn't, and his words were ultimately meaningless.  I don't think what he said was meaningless.

I don't think Mab was intentionally lying (she can't unless Nemfected, or if she took the Mantle off I guess??), I just think she's mistaken in her beliefs. 
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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2021, 09:00:40 AM »
Quote from: Paviel on April 06, 2021, 04:42:41 AM
I have already considered that it may have been an illogical leap to go from "The things Mab said were lies" to "Mab lied." I will no longer argue that point.

I like the idea that while the statements may have been lies, they weren't Mab's lies. But it makes me wonder who told Mab those lies...
I agree, it's an interesting notion to think about that lies might have a source, perhaps all lies. Naturally, the Father of Lies comes to mind but in the Dresdenverse he might not be the only candidate.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2021, 10:13:23 AM »
Quote from: groinkick on April 06, 2021, 07:11:02 AM
Well look at it this way.  If Uriel was wrong, then his words would have been nothing more than to comfort Harry before Mab turned him into her monster.

So either he's correct, and Mab's words were lies, or he wasn't, and his words were ultimately meaningless.  I don't think what he said was meaningless.

I don't think Mab was intentionally lying (she can't unless Nemfected, or if she took the Mantle off I guess??), I just think she's mistaken in her beliefs.
For Uriel the important thing is what effect these words have on Harry, he had only seven words available after all.

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Offline Paviel

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2021, 04:37:59 PM »
Mab probably wasn't Nemfected, but as of Ghost Story she was fairly close to somebody who was... Maybe Maeve told her that her Knight was hers to shape as she saw fit, and Maeve knew that was a lie.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2021, 12:54:33 AM »
Quote from: Arjan on April 05, 2021, 11:22:01 AM
Mab was quite explicit in what she wants. She wants a knight that shares her purpose. From what we know about her purpose she will probably get it.

She also has her ideas about what makes an effective knight just as she has ideas about what makes an effective winter lady. She will get a more effective team but not in the way she thinks.

Uriel is not bound to the truth in any way we know, he is bound to his purpose and he has a certain reputation. I would not take what he says at face value either.
He had a whole speech about how angels are held to a higher standard when it comes to lies in that same book.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2021, 05:11:20 AM »
Quote from: TheCuriousFan on April 07, 2021, 12:54:33 AM
He had a whole speech about how angels are held to a higher standard when it comes to lies in that same book.
No idea what these higher standards are. Those seven words helped Harry without doubt, they had a positive effect. They made him think.

They might not have been literally true. Or they might be true in Uriel’s soul centric world view but very dependent on interpretation.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:20:00 AM by Arjan »
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2021, 06:01:28 AM »
Quote from: Arjan on April 07, 2021, 05:11:20 AM
They might not have been literally true. Or they might be true in Uriel’s soul centric world view but very dependent on interpretation.

Harry turning the tables on Mab make it appear that it was true. 
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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2021, 07:10:47 AM »
Quote from: groinkick on April 07, 2021, 06:01:28 AM
Harry turning the tables on Mab make it appear that it was true.
It had the right effect on Harry and no doubts the words were well chosen but that does not necessarily imply truth.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2021, 06:25:55 PM »
Quote from: groinkick on April 07, 2021, 06:01:28 AM
Harry turning the tables on Mab make it appear that it was true.

 It is double edged, true, Mab cannot change who he is... Also true, she can order him and force him to do her will..  However the impression that Harry got from Mab was a lie,he thought she could change him..  Once it got through Harry's thick skull, [which the seven words did] that the first part was true, Harry could handle his job and put Mab on notice that she couldn't push him around, because in the end, he was still, Harry.
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Offline Dina

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2021, 12:35:26 AM »
Well, I just wanted to say that I agree 100% with all what Arjan said in this thread.
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Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2021, 11:47:36 PM »
Maybe you could even say that Harry choose to believe in Uriel's words and as a result they became the truth. Just like he was a representative of a faith or something :-D

I think this thought experiment underlines Man and other limitations and lack thereof. Let's say that Man gives Harry an order to get the shroud from Nic who she knows has just returned with it to Chicago.

Maybe it turns out that it was actually a shape shifter who impersonated Nic.

Clearly she did not speak the truth when she said Nic had returned to Chicago, but just as clearly she cannot use saying something as a truth detector.

Although Mab trying to say different things in the same way as that game when you have to guess who you are (and it is worrying on a card placed 8n your forehead) based on statements you are only told are true or false is funny.
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Offline Paviel

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2021, 12:25:38 AM »
If Uriel's words were not true, then by his own admission he is no better than Lasciel.

"Mortals are free to lie if they choose to do so. If they could not, they would not be free. But others are held to a higher standard. Their lies are far deadlier, far more potent." (Uriel, "Ghost Story" chapter 50)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 12:35:30 AM by Paviel »
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2021, 02:41:56 AM »
Quote from: Paviel on April 10, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
If Uriel's words were not true, then by his own admission he is no better than Lasciel.

"Mortals are free to lie if they choose to do so. If they could not, they would not be free. But others are held to a higher standard. Their lies are far deadlier, far more potent." (Uriel, "Ghost Story" chapter 50)
And Uriel is not potent and can not be deadly?

This does not tell us he can not lie. It just says he has no free will. But the rules that bind him might even force him to lie under some circumstances.
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Offline Paviel

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2021, 03:15:43 AM »
Quote
Maybe you could even say that Harry choose to believe in Uriel's words and as a result they became the truth.

Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.

What he said must have been True.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 03:18:32 AM by Paviel »
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2021, 03:37:26 AM »
Quote from: Paviel on April 10, 2021, 03:15:43 AM
Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.

What he said must have been True.

I was so going to agree, and then thought of something.  If a Fallen lied to Harry with 7 words, wouldn't Uriel lie to Harry with 7 words?  lol...  Na I don't really think so. 
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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.
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