Author Topic: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki  (Read 3387 times)

Offline groinkick

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Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:02:32 AM »
Legend says that Merlin's father was a demon, and his mother was a nun.  Even though his father was a demon, Merlin walked on the side of good.  Eb has books going back to Merlin which may be a hint that they are related.  Dresden when cut by the Holy Saber smelt brimstone....  So Harry could have a whole Star Wars "Harry, I'm your great great great grandfather" from Drakul. 

My guess is that only a blood relative of Merlin, born at the right time could wield the Starborn powers.  Harry is the guy. 

Maggie was working with Raith to create a Starborn.  I think they had it wrong.  It was when Maggie got with a "good" man that allowed for things to line up correctly.  Raith and Maggie thought the Starborn required a demon, and a non demon, not realizing that as someone related to Drakul, Maggie wasn't "pure"...  Only when she hooked up with Malcolm did it complete the requirements.  Someone pure of heart (Malcolm) with someone related to a demon/Drakul (Maggie).  The timing was what came next, and she got it right even if it wasn't meant to happen.


Drakul son of Loki

Jim said that Drakul is on par with Mab 1 vs 1.  In the fight with LTW he shifted into a Wolf that was taller than Harry and had the weight of several automobiles...  Sounds like Fenrir to me, and a match for Odin.

"In the beginning, Loki was merely a personification of Hate. As the stories went on, he became a devil. Sources indicated that Loki was originally a demon, or a Jotunn, since he born to two giants. Loki, as a result of sharing blood with Odin, became an Aesir, making him Odin's brother"

So Loki does appear to have been a demon.... 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 04:25:08 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2021, 01:53:00 PM »

  According to Bulfinch's Mythology Merlin was the son of a damsel who was seduced by a fiend.  He was, however baptized by Blaise, thus rescued from the power of Satan. 

Margaret had her problems, but she wasn't a demon.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2021, 03:56:18 PM »
  According to Bulfinch's Mythology Merlin was the son of a damsel who was seduced by a fiend.  He was, however baptized by Blaise, thus rescued from the power of Satan. 

Margaret had her problems, but she wasn't a demon.

She may have it in her blood.  Harry's daughter isn't a demon but she still has the blood of one
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2021, 06:59:13 PM »
She may have it in her blood.  Harry's daughter isn't a demon but she still has the blood of one

How do you figure?  Harry maybe star born, but that doesn't make him a demon.

Offline didymos

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2021, 07:06:15 PM »
"In the beginning, Loki was merely a personification of Hate. As the stories went on, he became a devil. Sources indicated that Loki was originally a demon, or a Jotunn, since he born to two giants. Loki, as a result of sharing blood with Odin, became an Aesir, making him Odin's brother"

Source your quotes.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2021, 08:09:54 PM »
Loki always seemed more like a nasty trickster, where Wodan was more the mercurial/slightly good (hah) trickster. Not an outright otherworldly-evil demon trickster.

Granted, he is bound up, similar to Lucifer, but then so is Prometheus.

Offline groinkick

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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2021, 09:17:17 PM »
How do you figure?  Harry maybe star born, but that doesn't make him a demon.

I didn't say he was a demon.  I said he could have it in his blood.  His daughter of course has it.  Her mother had it from being Red Court.  Thomas was born with it, and didn't become full White Court until his first victim, but it was always there within him
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2021, 09:24:59 PM »
Loki always seemed more like a nasty trickster, where Wodan was more the mercurial/slightly good (hah) trickster. Not an outright otherworldly-evil demon trickster.

Granted, he is bound up, similar to Lucifer, but then so is Prometheus.

If Mythology is accurate...  He isn't going to be on the side of humanity.

"During Ragnarok, when the gods and giants engage in their ultimate struggle and the cosmos is destroyed, Loki joins the battle on the side of the giants."

https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2021, 10:42:10 PM »
I didn't say he was a demon.  I said he could have it in his blood.  His daughter of course has it.  Her mother had it from being Red Court.  Thomas was born with it, and didn't become full White Court until his first victim, but it was always there within him

1]  First of all, Red Court vampire infection isn't passed through the placenta.  2] They aren't demons, they are vampires.  So no little Maggie didn't get any "demon blood" from her mother.  The whole vampire gig is different in White Court Vamps, they are possessed with and are born with the Hunger Demon, but there is no way he could have passed it on to her.  Red Court Vamps pass their condition on to their victims through saliva, they are monsters but I am not sure they pass as demons.   Margaret didn't catch the Hunger Demon having sex with Lord Raith, so no, Harry has no demon genes in his background.  Unless it was passed down many generations from Merlin, that is if he is related to Merlin.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2021, 01:53:36 AM »
2] They aren't demons, they are vampires. 

A vampire is a demon.  They can be killed or injured with faith magic, and their saliva is a "magical" narcotic.  They gain power from human blood.  They aren't creatures of Earth.

I think "demon" has different meanings within the Dresdenverse.  For example Chauncy the demon isn't the same as the hunger demon the White Court has. 
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Red Court Vamps pass their condition on to their victims through saliva.

Their saliva is addictive, and numbs the person while being fed on.  Harry was fed on, he's had the saliva in his blood.  He didn't get turned into a vamp.  I dont' know if they said exactly how they turned someone.

Quote
Margaret didn't catch the Hunger Demon having sex with Lord Raith, so no, Harry has no demon genes in his background.

At no point did I suggest this.

Quote
Unless it was passed down many generations from Merlin, that is if he is related to Merlin.

Which was the topic of discussion, and what I suggested.  One clue is when Harry asked if Kincaid was human and Kincaid responded "As much human as you are"...... 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 02:24:15 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2021, 05:59:09 PM »
A vampire is a demon.  They can be killed or injured with faith magic, and their saliva is a "magical" narcotic.  They gain power from human blood.  They aren't creatures of Earth.

I think "demon" has different meanings within the Dresdenverse.  For example Chauncy the demon isn't the same as the hunger demon the White Court has. 
Their saliva is addictive, and numbs the person while being fed on.  Harry was fed on, he's had the saliva in his blood.  He didn't get turned into a vamp.  I dont' know if they said exactly how they turned someone.
 
At no point did I suggest this.

Which was the topic of discussion, and what I suggested.  One clue is when Harry asked if Kincaid was human and Kincaid responded "As much human as you are"......

Lots to unpack here.

1) We don't know how much wizards are pure mortal. Could be that all wizards have some level of non-human ancestry that their power derives from. Could be that they're physically (due to perfect healing), enhanced humans- and that is what Kincaid physically effectively is.
2) Faith magic isn't restricted to affecting demons. That's headcannon. Faith magic is magic that derives from the power of faith- it's not inborn like a wizard's power. That's more or less what we know about it. It's more effective against some things, it lets you do things like curse a family into a hereditary loup garou curse that in no way otherwise abridges their mortality. Don't equate "affected by faith magic" to "demonic." The KotC are effective against ghosts, demons, materials in their way, Fae, etc- all non-demon things.
3) There's nothing about magical narcotics that's inherently demonic.
4) They gain sustenance from human blood- in two instances we're aware of (the White Court feeding directly on life force); and it seems to also feed their powers in the case of the Red Court.
They're made out of people, though, which definitionally makes them creatures of earth.
We are told how Red Court are made: Infection. We aren't told the mechanism. Could be like the Red Court- you need to ingest their blood. We do know it's not the same as the Kiss (their feeding), because that doesn't impart the Hunger, the key element of the Red Court infected- who also gain superhuman physical abilities, a weakened form of the kiss, and immortality- none of which did Harry show until the Mantle (superhuman strength). So no, very much doubt Harry's carrying a latent Red Court infection.

Maggie herself, even if the infection crossed the placenta barrier, showed no Red Court traits- and once the Red Court was annihilated, her own half-vamp state, if she had one, would have been annihilated just the like Fellowship of St. Giles had their vampire halves annihilated.

Now, the smell of brimstone- that could be a side effect of the Swords, could be specific to Harry (something he'd recognize after Lasciel), could be that when angels damage things, they use fire and brimstone (and Fallen typically are destructive), so the Swords always smell a bit like that when magically cutting. Butter's Sword doesn't hurt mortals. It only hurts supernatural monsters. It hurting Harry, I believe, was telling Harry and the reader that *at the time* he was a supernatural monster, like a battleform Denarian host. Which is consistent with the argument I've raised other places- Harry's "voice" sounded just like when he went full Winter Knight in Cold Days. Harry wasn't in the driver's seat at the time- his Mantle was. And the Knights did the same thing for him they do for the Denarian hosts- gave him the opportunity to resume control. Which he took.

I agree they were trying to make a starborn, and I think Thomas was the dry run- his birth on Valentine's being a side-effect of temporal manipulation by Margaret to ensure a "targeted" birth via her skills with the Nevernever.

Equating the Jotuns with demons is . .problematic. The concept of a demon is much more Middle Eastern- the concept we have is filtered through Christianity, but it comes from a tradition of evil spirits. Jotuns were something parallel-ish. If the Vanir had lost their war, been scattered, and devoted themselves to the ruin of all the Aesir wrought, that would be a stronger parallel to demons. Jotuns were more Cyclopses or Titans.

Loki was the god of fire. Carefully harnessed with caution, a great ally. Running loose, consuming all before him. Hence associations with red hair, shapeshifting, mischief, and danger.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2021, 07:59:56 PM »
Loki was the god of fire. Carefully harnessed with caution, a great ally. Running loose, consuming all before him. Hence associations with red hair, shapeshifting, mischief, and danger.

"The children of Loki with the giantess Angrbod a were Fenrir, Jormungandr and Hel. Loki’s children with the giantess were feared and persecuted by the Aesir gods, and are destined to cause their destruction"

Loki is not just a god of fire.  He's very dangerous, and not a friend.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2021, 05:28:55 AM »
"The children of Loki with the giantess Angrbod a were Fenrir, Jormungandr and Hel. Loki’s children with the giantess were feared and persecuted by the Aesir gods, and are destined to cause their destruction"

Loki is not just a god of fire.  He's very dangerous, and not a friend.

That's the point of his character: Fire is both helpful and dangerous.

You notice there are many myths where he travels with Thor, god of storms, thunder, and lightning- and wildfires frequently follow lightning strikes.

Odin, by being his bloodbrother, demonstrates his knowledge and power as a master of seidr, by gaining the power to control fire. Even the nature of Odin's blood brother pledge, where he would not eat nor drink unless Loki was first served, speaks to a mythological retelling of sacrifice: You burn it so Odin can have it.

Angrbod(a) embodied wrath or hate. I have seen scholarship to the effect that Fenris embodied the darker side of winter, starvation and cold. Jormungandr is similar to the symbolism of the snake devouring its own tail; in some Indian traditions and Celtic this represents time itself- Hel speaks for herself as the inevitably of death.

Loki in the end betrays the Aesir randomly and in an out-of-character way; he's sentenced to eternal punishment under the earth where a serpent dripped caustic venom into his eyes, and his wife desperately caught it in a bowl. When she is emptying the bowl; he screams and shrieks as his eyes are destroyed, then healed- this causes earthquakes. In a volcanically active region like parts of Norse lands, this would explain lava flows. The destruction and regeneration of his eyes, of course, is similar to Prometheus (another fire god) and his liver- cross-contamination or shared root is beyond my knowledge.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Merlin the son of Drakul. Drakul son of Loki
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2021, 03:53:24 AM »
Eb has books going back to Merlin which may be a hint that they are related.
My favorite WAG is that Harry is descended from Merlin, and Merlin is descended from Odin.

Early in the series, Harry defined demons as creatures from the Nevernever that were interested in eating or otherwise harming humans. Also early in the series, Harry said vampires were of the Nevernever. Unless it was just early installment weirdness, vampires are demons.

I recall that Jim has said or implied that Maggie will be affected by Susan having been a half ramp. I could be misremembering or misinterpreting.

Jim has said Thomas wasn't planned but was the result of lot's of awesome vampire sex.