There is no Black Council

[Yuillegan]

Here's a wild one for you, and it's probably been said before, but why not explore it again.

There is no Black Council and never was. In fact, what Harry perceives as a Black Council is quite possibly several different things.

We know that the "Black Council" is a relatively new force, in the supernatural world. We also know they like screwing up everyone. We also know they seem to have members everywhere.

While Dresden muses that perhaps the Black Council is none other than Nemesis spread around, I think we can safely assume it's more than that.

It's hinted at that Margaret Le Fay was involved somehow, as she seems to be well known by lots of supposedly dark beings. However the Wardens and others never outright state she was evil, just that she was very like Harry and walked around the crumbling edges of the Laws of Magic and railed against the unfairness and lack of responsibility of the Council. She was friends with vampires, dark wizards, Denarians, gods, dark faeries and probably more. Just like Harry is.

Sure, Harry sees them as allies of necessity. Who says that Margaret didn't? Harry is allies with the Lara Raith, Mab, Molly (the Winter Lady and former Warlock), Vadderung (a shadowy being even when he is a good guy), The Erlking (King of the Goblins), Bigfoots (which some regard as monsters), the Summer Lady, the most notorious gangster in America - Freeholding Lord and now Knight of the Blackened Denarius Gentleman John Marcone etc. Not very different to his mother really. Not to mention he also is THE Warden of Demonreach (a place filled with dark gods, demons, Titans, and almost certainly Outsiders plus probably many other nasties). He also earned the respect of the God of the Greco-Roman Underworld, Hades. Not to mention he has an armory of divine weaponry from the Redeemer and now also the Eye of Balor. From the outside he looks pretty bad. Not to mention all his terrifying accomplishments and open defiance of great powers - including the White Council.

My theory is that groups like the Grey Council and the Executive Ministry of the Accorded Nations (some of which are actually on the Grey Council), are actually just cells of the Black Council. Harry is on to of these and just doesn't realise it. They all seem to have good intentions, sure. But clearly everyone has other motives. The end result is the accumulation of power - something Harry is doing naturally and exponentially. Even if he doesn't mean to. The Grey Council haven't really shown what they are up to...which is to say I suspect they are not doing what Harry believes they are.

What if Cowl and others are just another cell? Perhaps that's why it's called the Circle.

What if in the end, Harry goes so far down the road he ends up on what he thought was the Bad Guys team just to stop the Even Worse guys?

What if he is already on the team and just doesn't realise it? 

[Larry Fowler]

I know it sounds short, after such a well thought out theory, but yeah it makes sens. 

I think will get to see that no one see it's self as «black council». Sure lots of wizard are in cahoot to advance there agenda but it's probable that none of them think they are on the wrong side.

I think Harry knows he's entangled with far to many dangerous actors. He probably hates it but it's been a necessary evil to stay alive while he was in untenable positions. I think we will see him reflect on just how bad some of those ''allies'' are. We might even see him turn on some of them.

All that said thanks for the theory.
 

[groinkick]

Hmm interesting theory but I don't see Harry joining up with someone like Cowl who was willing to destroy Chicago, and everyone who lived there to become a dark god. 

I believe that the Stars and Stones is a very dangerous event coming, and there are those doing what they can to prepare for it.  There are those on the side of humanity, and those on the side of personal power.  Dresden stands in humanity's corner, the Black Council stands in the other.  I believe they want to become the new Titans, gods, whatever.

[Bad Alias]

I was expecting a different theory from the title. Something like:

There is no Black Council. As Jim has stated, everyone who was around last time is preparing for this time. Everyone is trying to position themselves to take advantage of whatever's coming. This means that they are all acting out of character because it's a bit of a last minute scramble. Now is the time to take risks because not being well positioned when whatever happens happens is a much bigger risk. So we see a bunch of stuff that looks the same. Take the Gatekeeper's list of strange happenings in TC or Lily's in CD. It looks like a coordinated effort to upset the status quo. A grand conspiracy. A Black Council because wizards are definitely involved in much of it. But it's not. It's a couple of White Council traitors, maybe a few mortal practitioners who aren't even on the White Council, and everyone involved in the scramble for a good position when the balloon goes up. And they're no more working together or part of the same organization than Harry and his various allies and frenemies are. There is no Black Council.

You could even say that the Gatekeeper was hinting at it when he listed the things that Harry had done that were out of the ordinary. I don't think the Gatekeeper has ever seriously thought Harry was a black hat. Sure, he's considered the possibility because the risk of not considering it and hedging his bet that Harry was a white hat was too great. He's pretty much always been there to save, help, or advise Harry when Harry needed help against/with the Council except in PT/BG. And that might be because it's part of his prediction alluded to TC that Harry will make some sort of stand against the Council.

The whole Black Council/Circle/Nemesis thing is so vague that I'm willing to go with just about any of the theories I've seen here.

[Yuillegan]

I know it sounds short, after such a well thought out theory, but yeah it makes sens. 

I think will get to see that no one see it's self as «black council». Sure lots of wizard are in cahoot to advance there agenda but it's probable that none of them think they are on the wrong side.

I think Harry knows he's entangled with far to many dangerous actors. He probably hates it but it's been a necessary evil to stay alive while he was in untenable positions. I think we will see him reflect on just how bad some of those ''allies'' are. We might even see him turn on some of them.

All that said thanks for the theory.

Glad you liked it. For sure Harry will fight some of his allies...the real question will be who will be "good" by that point? Harry might be more dark than they are by then! But eventually, calling it now, Harry is going to spar with Mab for some reason.

Hmm interesting theory but I don't see Harry joining up with someone like Cowl who was willing to destroy Chicago, and everyone who lived there to become a dark god. 

I believe that the Stars and Stones is a very dangerous event coming, and there are those doing what they can to prepare for it.  There are those on the side of humanity, and those on the side of personal power.  Dresden stands in humanity's corner, the Black Council stands in the other.  I believe they want to become the new Titans, gods, whatever.

At this stage, I think foes like Cowl and Drakul are too evil and have unpaid debts as far as Harry is concerned. But it wouldn't surprise me either if Harry ended up on the same team...I mean no one predicted Harry and Nicodemus would work together (that I recall). Doesn't mean they will stay that way. But technically Harry and Merlin are on the same team, and they hate each other. Winter and Summer are on the same team when it comes to fighting the Fomor or Outsiders.

But you are right, the core of Dresden is about protecting humanity. So if that breaks then Dresden is full monster.

I was expecting a different theory from the title. Something like:

There is no Black Council. As Jim has stated, everyone who was around last time is preparing for this time. Everyone is trying to position themselves to take advantage of whatever's coming. This means that they are all acting out of character because it's a bit of a last minute scramble. Now is the time to take risks because not being well positioned when whatever happens happens is a much bigger risk. So we see a bunch of stuff that looks the same. Take the Gatekeeper's list of strange happenings in TC or Lily's in CD. It looks like a coordinated effort to upset the status quo. A grand conspiracy. A Black Council because wizards are definitely involved in much of it. But it's not. It's a couple of White Council traitors, maybe a few mortal practitioners who aren't even on the White Council, and everyone involved in the scramble for a good position when the balloon goes up. And they're no more working together or part of the same organization than Harry and his various allies and frenemies are. There is no Black Council.

You could even say that the Gatekeeper was hinting at it when he listed the things that Harry had done that were out of the ordinary. I don't think the Gatekeeper has ever seriously thought Harry was a black hat. Sure, he's considered the possibility because the risk of not considering it and hedging his bet that Harry was a white hat was too great. He's pretty much always been there to save, help, or advise Harry when Harry needed help against/with the Council except in PT/BG. And that might be because it's part of his prediction alluded to TC that Harry will make some sort of stand against the Council.

The whole Black Council/Circle/Nemesis thing is so vague that I'm willing to go with just about any of the theories I've seen here.

That might be true too! Who knows? I like it as an alternative theory. In any case I am betting that the Black Council isn't what Harry thinks it is...assuming it exists the way Harry has assumed it does at all.

[Snark Knight]

Sure, Harry sees them as allies of necessity. Who says that Margaret didn't?

She probably did rationalize it a lot like that. But Goodman Grey didn't have any reason to lie about her being a piece of work, even if implying she was in the same general league as his father might have been more to pull Harry back from the edge of doing something frightened or violent just over his parentage than a strictly accurate comparison.

[morriswalters]

In any case I am betting that the Black Council isn't what Harry thinks it is...assuming it exists the way Harry has assumed it does at all.

Harry(Jim) deprecates the Black Council in Cold Days, and the title itself was a place holder.

[groinkick]

Harry(Jim) deprecates the Black Council in Cold Days, and the title itself was a place holder.

Yeah just something he does..  He Names things...  He doesn't know who the shadowy group is and so they are the Black Council as opposed to the White Council.

[Yuillegan]

She probably did rationalize it a lot like that. But Goodman Grey didn't have any reason to lie about her being a piece of work, even if implying she was in the same general league as his father might have been more to pull Harry back from the edge of doing something frightened or violent just over his parentage than a strictly accurate comparison.

Interesting. Are you arguing that Harry's mother might have not been the wonderful woman Harry wants her to be?  Yeah, I would be surprised if Margaret was in the same league of bad as a being that tortures others for fun and peace of mind, and has a spirit form so bad it disrupts ley lines and causes near-insanity to those who look upon it. But I get you. More likely she was a piece of work in how much trouble she caused and how the she rocked the boat and scared powerful people, less because she was a terrible monster (probably). Anyway, few people see themselves as the villain of the story (unless you count the poorly written Even Hand - interesting novela but what person describes themselves as an efficient monster, Marcone is a lot of things but not a sociopath).

Harry(Jim) deprecates the Black Council in Cold Days, and the title itself was a place holder.

Very much agree. But I do think that there is an organised group of "bad" guys. I just think it isn't what Harry has believed. I used to think (and was shouted down for it) that it was all Nemesis (assuming Nemesis was some horrible Old One). But given recent reveals I think Nemesis is merely a part of the team. A big part but not even necessarily the leader or the majority of it. If Jim is revealing Nemesis now it's because he wants us to focus on it. He is saving up much bigger reveals I am sure, and definitely a few sucker punches.

Yeah just something he does..  He Names things...  He doesn't know who the shadowy group is and so they are the Black Council as opposed to the White Council.

Indeed. And it takes him until Cold Days to realise the short-sightedness and arrogance of assuming they were an evil version of the Council (even though a lot of characters hinted that was not the case - Nicodemus in Small Favor for one). They are much bigger and more dangerous than just some group of renegade wizards. But who's to say Harry hasn't already discovered them, perhaps has/is accidentally worked/working with them?

[groinkick]

Indeed. And it takes him until Cold Days to realise the short-sightedness and arrogance of assuming they were an evil version of the Council (even though a lot of characters hinted that was not the case - Nicodemus in Small Favor for one). They are much bigger and more dangerous than just some group of renegade wizards. But who's to say Harry hasn't already discovered them, perhaps has/is accidentally worked/working with them?

He may have by accident.  I mean if Black Council member points Harry in the direction of bad guy who's going to kill innocents, and Harry kills bad guy it may have been plan of Black Council to kill bad guy for other reasons, and used Harry.  That's possible but I don't see him working with them to achieve their goals.

Here is something I'm almost sure of.  Odin, and Mab are not on the side of the Black Council.  If Harry was doing their bidding on purpose or by accident, I'd think Mab or Odin would step in somehow. 

[Yuillegan]

It's definitely set up so we are sure they are not the Black Council...yet Vadderung did help destroy the Red Court, as did Lea (another possible Black Council agent). Mab sent her Knight and her strongest servant to destroy the Red Court. Let's be real here - they were not merely protecting/aiding Harry or Ebenezer. Mab and Odin are long-term planners. The removal of the Red Court was part of that. Nicodemus pointed out that the Red Court had to be removed for the success of any long-term plan, and lo and behold they are removed.

As I said earlier, it might not be that the Black Council is just one thing. They might be competing against other factions of the Black Council. Hell, if it's what I think it is it's probably more like players and non-players. The players include the Black Council, Mab, Odin, The Senior Council, Drakul and many others. The non-players are the majority, folk like Harry and some deliberate non-partisans like River Shoulders. The players are all about the same goal: control of the Stars and Stones (which leads to control of the New World, although likely there are several possible outcomes). The players work together but yet are all competing. Just like in Skin Game, Harry works with those he rather wouldn't (something he has been doing since Summer Knight but steadily increasing his involvement). We know Vadderung is a player of the game: Ethniu deliberately refers to it. Strangely, she seems to be saying she is above the game yet she also has a starborn on her roster so clearly she she wasn't just relying on brute force. At any rate, I am going to keep looking for the sucker punch.

[The_Sibelis]

There is no war in ba sing se...
I kinda agree, I think what Harry thinks of as the black council doesn't exist, at least not how he thinks it does.

[Yuillegan]

There is no war in ba sing se...
I kinda agree, I think what Harry thinks of as the black council doesn't exist, at least not how he thinks it does.

That was definitely the Merlin (Langtry)'s position. Love the reference by the way.

[Bad Alias]

Anyway, few people see themselves as the villain of the story (unless you count the poorly written Even Hand.

Or Harry about half the time. I've never been a big fan of the "everyone is the hero of his own story" type statements, so I appreciate the few people formulation, but I'd probably go further. There are plenty of terrible people out there who know they're terrible. Plenty of villains in stories that know they only care for themselves and are after power for their own sake.

[1]Vadderung did help destroy the Red Court, as did Lea (another possible Black Council agent). Mab sent her Knight and her strongest servant to destroy the Red Court. Let's be real here - they were not merely protecting/aiding Harry or Ebenezer.
...
[2]Ethniu deliberately refers to it. Strangely, she seems to be saying she is above the game yet she also has a starborn on her roster so clearly she she wasn't just relying on brute force.

1) Mab was getting revenge for all the Accord violations and the violations of Faerie from DB. Plus getting them out of the way for whatever they'd be in the way of down the road. Maybe even intending to draw Ethnui and the Fomor out so she could deal with them sooner rather than later.

Harry and Eb are obviously Merlin's descendants, the bloodline curse was way over powered to hit just Harry and Eb, so it's also obvious that Odin didn't just teach Merlin but also fathered him. (The strength and confidence of this statement is meant as a joke).

2) Also ironic as she was being used as a pawn of Nemesis in the game.

I think Harry's probably already moved away from his reasoning that led him to call it the Black Council. Does that make it more likely that he was initially right?

[Yuillegan]

Or Harry about half the time. I've never been a big fan of the "everyone is the hero of his own story" type statements, so I appreciate the few people formulation, but I'd probably go further. There are plenty of terrible people out there who know they're terrible. Plenty of villains in stories that know they only care for themselves and are after power for their own sake.

Indeed, but they often are not so cliché about it. It unfortunately felt like Harry was pretending to be Marcone, rather than the voice of the real Marcone (in Even Hand). Just broke the immersion for me. 

1) Mab was getting revenge for all the Accord violations and the violations of Faerie from DB. Plus getting them out of the way for whatever they'd be in the way of down the road. Maybe even intending to draw Ethnui and the Fomor out so she could deal with them sooner rather than later.

Yeah that works for me. It definitely was more than just for Harry though. It's an interesting idea that she created a power vacuum to force the Fomor's hand. Would be very Mab, but what a risk! Doubt Harry would be pleased if he knew.

Harry and Eb are obviously Merlin's descendants, the bloodline curse was way over powered to hit just Harry and Eb, so it's also obvious that Odin didn't just teach Merlin but also fathered him. (The strength and confidence of this statement is meant as a joke).

I get that, but I believe there was a theory that Eb and Harry are literal blood descendants of the Original Merlin Emrys. It isn't such a stretch to imagine it was all Vadderung.

2) Also ironic as she was being used as a pawn of Nemesis in the game.

Indeed. Perhaps an oversight on Jim's part.

[/quote]
I think Harry's probably already moved away from his reasoning that led him to call it the Black Council. Does that make it more likely that he was initially right?
[/quote]
Well that's a head scratcher. Best use Occam's Razor for that sort of thing.