Author Topic: Why didn't Drakul kill.....  (Read 6220 times)

Offline groinkick

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Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« on: January 31, 2021, 06:37:19 PM »
Listens to Wind, and River shoulders?  I know that they are pretty powerful but Drakul could stand up to Mab (per words of Jim), and I don't see them being near her level of power.  Mavra said he was having fun....  But he, and the Black Court were there to collect (or consume) wizards.  They took some of them for that purpose.  So I can't help but wonder why Drakul would allow LTW or River Shoulders to get out alive... 

So do you think Drakul allowed them to live, or were those two strong enough to get out alive on their own?  I just don't see how if Drakul is as powerful as Jim said they could have survived.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2021, 08:34:24 PM »
Or even just paralyse all the wizards with his Will, just like the Lords of the Outer Night did to Harry and his Fellowship in Changes?

I have asked these questions before too. Having thought about it for a while I came to the conclusion that sadly it's Jim's writing that is to blame. Drakul didn't get the entrance he deserved, or was built up to have. There is no logical story reason that Drakul couldn't have locked down all the opponents nor any reason he shouldn't have.

If he had trapped all his foes he could have turned them all, if it was powerful new recruits he was after. If they were in his way why didn't he just kill them? As you say, he is meant to be able to kill Mab so it shouldn't have been an issue to take them out.

Even if you try and say he was just having fun by sparring with them, surely such a viscous monster would have wanted to get some personal kills.

The only thing that makes sense was he was testing something or has use for Harry, LtW and River Shoulders in future.

No, it unfortunately seems that due to the rushed books, the split and perhaps some other reasons Jim just didn't write his best scene. Perhaps he would have wrote something that made more sense if he had written a Drakul scene way back when he wrote Dead Beat. Maybe it would have matched closet to what we have been lead to believe. Drakul just came off a little underwhelming...maybe he could never live up to the hype. Which is kinda crazy considering he certainly was powerful and scary. He took on River, LtW and Harry and wasn't worried at all. When the wardens attacked he disrupted them quickly, crippling Ramirez and possibly killed Chandler.

The other possibility is he was distracted by other events, perhaps stuff to do with time travel and parallel universes or more mundane events and had to leave Chicago.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 10:50:40 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2021, 02:12:45 AM »
Quotes WOJ on Drakul...i think I missed something

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2021, 02:29:41 AM »
Naaaa, see. Your forgetting Jim's a DnD player. This was the BBEG making a show of things and batting the A team around to show you that he can. He monologues the whole fight basically. He clearly scoffs at the evil overlords list and does what he wants. Plus as Jim has said recently, he's a hit n run kinda guy, he didn't want to get caught up in a stand up fight for too long. Who knows what kinda reinforcements might show up?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 02:56:59 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2021, 02:33:46 AM »
I don't think Drakul is on Mabs level and no he couldn't kill ltw or river shoulders anytime... He is badass but your saying Drakul can kill Odin or Queen Mab or queen Titania or any of the Queens or the Earl King or pretty much anybody that's been mentioned besides archangel in Dresden Files..enlighten us

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2021, 02:53:03 AM »
You cannot be given enlightenment, you must enlighten yourself... By looking at the Woj section.. I mean, the one on Drakul vs Mab is so old it's been on the main page forever...

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2021, 03:50:57 AM »
Oh so no proof...gotcha!

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2021, 04:55:08 AM »
Oh so no proof...gotcha!
you know, I was being facetious.. but yea, just because you won't go look for yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You've been here long enough, there's no reason why you haven't perused the Woj section... Or the reference collection for that matter. But not reading up on Woj when they were nice enough to format and list them for you? Sheer laziness.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2021, 05:01:42 AM »
There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.

Hmmm.  In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist."  Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth.  But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:

o   Titania--though it would be a coin toss.  Almost literally.
o   The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o   The White Council.  As in, ALL the White Council.  Every wizard on the planet.  And they'd need her Name.
o   Drakul.
o   Ferrovax.
o   The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o   The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o   Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o   A union of the old Elders of the Black Court.  They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.

All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description.  Which she does.

There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. :)
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Offline Avernite

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2021, 07:02:59 AM »
There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.

Much as this WoJ is clear, the actual canonical text seems to say that it's no longer valid. Ferrovax is very clearly on a different level than Drakul, and Drakul doesn't seem much stronger than a Lord of Outer Night or two.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2021, 12:16:15 PM »
There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.
eh, fair enough, I'd forgotten about that. Though you found it quick enough lol. Really though, saying there's no proof because they haven't seen it...

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2021, 12:43:03 PM »
There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.

I appreciate the sentiment and the help you have given, but it isn't that hard to look up WOJ. And that one is quite an easy one to find regardless, and it's a fairly well-known one. While it's good to help I don't know that we as a community should encourage laziness and wilful ignorance either. Not that I think you meant to do that either it's merely a possibility created by this situation.

Oh so no proof...gotcha!
I don't know whether you were joking or not but either way I think it's probably best not to subvert the thread all that much. If it was an attempt at humour fair enough, sometimes things don't translate well via writing and not everyone's sense of humour is the same but let's move on and stick to the topic. But if you were deliberately just trying to tease another member of the community whilst also subverting the thread and ignoring established WOJ just because you haven't done your homework - you might just want to reconsider your position. This board is for everyone and humour doesn't always carry well (particularly sarcasm) over the web. Whatever your intentions it might be time to get back on topic and come prepared for good-natured thoughtful and at least semi-researched discussion. I'll leave it at that.



Much as this WoJ is clear, the actual canonical text seems to say that it's no longer valid. Ferrovax is very clearly on a different level than Drakul, and Drakul doesn't seem much stronger than a Lord of Outer Night or two.
I get your point but implication and inference via action aren't quite the same as exposition on the part of the author. I don't remember in the series anywhere it actually says Drakul could take Mab, or even Ferro or almost any of the others bar Titania and the Mothers. And you are right this is an old list. It didn't include Ethniu or Angels or Archangels etc. But just because Drakul isn't necessarily as strong in raw power as Ferrovax doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Mab, or strong enough to kill her. Depending on how Drakul's powers work he might be suited perfectly to taking out Immortals like Mab. Perhaps it's more about critical power, or out-thinking his enemies (although this list is just about who has the horsepower - so clearly he has at least that). Drakul seemed far more dangerous than any of the Lord's of the Outer Night. Harry says he feels stronger than the lot of them, and Drakul seems more dangerous than the Red King. Morgan had the Red King - and he isn't nearly as dangerous as Ebenezar was, and Eb was both afraid and respected the danger of Drakul. But nowhere does it recently outline that Drakul isn't strong enough, so it isn't yet canon that he can't. In fact, the only canon we have on the whole thing is the list itself so that's what we should stick to.

Naaaa, see. Your forgetting Jim's a DnD player. This was the BBEG making a show of things and batting the A team around to show you that he can. He monologues the whole fight basically. He clearly scoffs at the evil overlords list and does what he wants. Plus as Jim has said recently, he's a hit n run kinda guy, he didn't want to get caught up in a stand up fight for too long. Who knows what kinda reinforcements might show up?
Not at all, I consider him as a D&D player/DM all the time! But I suspect you are right. Just because the scene didn't quite work when I read it (and clearly for a few others too), doesn't mean that Jim wasn't trying to show how badass Drakul is. I think you might be bang on about he was just playing with them, it occurred to me the other day in another thread. Yeah the hit n run aspect is intriguing. Perhaps he is just smarter than most villains and doesn't get thrown off schedule by petty fights when the real victory is so much more worth it. But as Marcone would put it, that probably means he isn't so sure of his strength as to just wipe out even relatively minor threats. In fact, I suspect this answers why he didn't use his Will attack. Perhaps, like Vadderung and other such beings, he doesn't rely on such a thing unless he has to. The Lord's of the Outer Night went immediately to their super move and showed their hand. More powerful and dangerous beings seem to keep an ace up their sleeve and use other tactics to defeat their enemies, even enjoy the sport of combat. That's far scarier to watch in some ways. Drakul only went for his Will when he encountered Harry and I doubt it was to do with Harry's danger as a combatant. I suspect it was more to do with Harry being another Starborn and whatever else he may be, and because Drakul (like a few other villains) seems to want to test out Dresden. There is almost a long game around testing Dresden but what it's meant to lead to is unclear. He Who Walks Behind, Cowl, Justin, Drakul...there is definitely a pattern somewhere.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2021, 01:10:30 PM »
I appreciate the sentiment and the help you have given, but it isn't that hard to look up WOJ. And that one is quite an easy one to find regardless, and it's a fairly well-known one. While it's good to help I don't know that we as a community should encourage laziness and wilful ignorance either. Not that I think you meant to do that either it's merely a possibility created by this situation.
It's kind of annoying for half of them since you have to copypaste the link to a new tab and remove the /bb/ along with swapping the jimbutcher for paranet since otherwise you just get booted to the front page of jim-butcher.com
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Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2021, 03:28:19 PM »
Listens to Wind, and River shoulders?  I know that they are pretty powerful but Drakul could stand up to Mab (per words of Jim), and I don't see them being near her level of power.  Mavra said he was having fun....  But he, and the Black Court were there to collect (or consume) wizards.  They took some of them for that purpose.  So I can't help but wonder why Drakul would allow LTW or River Shoulders to get out alive... 

So do you think Drakul allowed them to live, or were those two strong enough to get out alive on their own?  I just don't see how if Drakul is as powerful as Jim said they could have survived.

I think it is complicated, Drakul is very strong, but so are River Shoulders and LTW,  I think there is an element of luck involved also for lack of a better name.  LTW said if you can fight Drakul to a draw, that is a win.  The element of luck here was Harry's conjuritis, team White Council plus River Shoulders was well on their way to losing until Harry started sneezing and anvils began to fall out of the sky.  It was really Mavra that set it up to be a total no win for the team, ignore her and walk away, a huge zombie army of the undead rise up, if they fight especially with the addition of Drakul's muscle, heavy loses will result.  Killing LTW and River might have been a couple of cherries on top of the general shit pile, but the point had been made and Team Black Court gained at least two powerful wizards.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Why didn't Drakul kill.....
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2021, 04:31:52 PM »
I think it is complicated, Drakul is very strong, but so are River Shoulders and LTW,

That's the thing.  By comparison they are not.  Raw horsepower (as Jim said) it would take every wizard on the planet to stand up to Mab while Drakul can by himself.  So as powerful as LTW is, he's nothing, nothing in comparison to Drakul.

The only thing I could come up with is that Drakul is less effective against some forms of magic, and LTW is good enough to exploit it.  Just as River shoulders was able to stop him from teleporting. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 04:35:51 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.