The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

1066, Hastings, Stamford Bridge, and the Outer Gates

(1/5) > >>

Kindler:
Hold tight, because this is a long one. I thought I had posted the following claims and hypotheses a couple of years ago, but I cannot find that post. I did, however, find a Word document that held a big chunk of it, but was unfinished. Here follows my thoughts on Hastings (which has been mentioned too many times for coincidence), and why I think that, Stamford Bridge, and the Norman Invasion were the "last time a Starborn was running around."

Before I start, my claim: I think William the Conqueror was a Starborn. I think Hastings, and (perhaps more importantly) the Battle of Stamford Bridge represent the last time control of the Outer Gates changed hands. I think Odin and the Norse pantheon used to serve that role. I think Hastings itself was the conflict in which the Winter and Summer decided which Court would guard the Gates.

Evidence:

Word Of Jim, from the KC Signing circa 2013:


--- Quote ---You said the Winter, rather, Knights’ mantles change fairly often? How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around. And so….Mab and Maeve, um, **unintelligible**, I leave things here, don’t miss ‘em.
--- End quote ---

I'll do my best to break this down as clearly as I can. It's probably best to start with some background and important details from the Word of Jim above:

Mab—and presumably Titania—have had their mantles for "better than 1,000 years." The Battle of Hastings, which kicked off the third (successful) Norman invasion of Britain, and ended the Anglo-Saxon line of succession permanently, was in 1066, for those of you who weren't aware. The conflict itself was basically one of succession—William, Duke of Normandy, was contending for the throne, which was held by King Harold, who was childless; William was his cousin (something like once removed).

But the conflict for the throne wasn't limited to the Normans and English: King Harald Hardrara, of Norway (Read: Vikings) wanted in on the action. But they got surprised at Stamford Bridge by the Anglo-Saxons, and were wrecked; out of more than ten thousand across a few hundred ships, only a few dozen ships made it home.

The following may or may not be related to the rest of this, so I'm spoilering it to keep this as tidy as I can:

(click to show/hide)There is a particularly awesome legend about this battle: it's said that a lone Viking held the bridge against the English for hours (or, at least, a significant length of time—I doubt they were watching their sundials), and managed to kill dozens on his own. Accounts vary, but in one of the stories my dad told me longer ago than I care to think about, the Anglo-Saxons had to withdraw and fire multiple volleys of arrows at him before he was taken down. In others, an English soldier floated under the bridge in a barrel and stabbed him from below. Whether this was a lycanthrope (Bob did mention Viking Berserkers were this type of werewolf) or the Norse Pantheon’s equivalent of a Knight, or something different (including just a regular guy) is fodder for speculation (like this whole post), but if it was something supernatural, then this might represent a significant act of mortals demonstrating their power through ingenuity and numbers; longbows changed the face of warfare, don't let anyone tell you different.
Now, the Age of Vikings was well on its way out at this point, but their defeat at Stamford Bridge was pretty much the final nail in their coffin. Their influence on the world—especially Britain—was waning, and this ended it completely. Before this, if you look at transcripts of Calendars and records kept by monasteries in England, Viking invasions were basically a yearly occurrence. It was an ongoing joke with my thesis adviser that every entry ended with, "In the Summer, the Vikings invaded."

I believe strongly that Stamford Bridge represented what was taking place in the supernatural world: a transfer of power from Vadderung/Odin to the Faerie Courts. I believe this conflict effectively ended the Norse Pantheon’s stewardship of the Outer Gates. I don't think that influence is a simple binary transfer, and that there was a tumultuous period that ended with Stamford Bridge, and that the Fae had to establish their own pecking order afterward, which culminated in… Hastings.

The first major, major clue in the books (which sparked this line of thinking for me) came in Cold Days. Titania states that she and Mab haven't spoken to one another since Hastings.

To me, this implies that something happened there that fundamentally altered their relationship. I don't think they were best friends—in fact, I think they were opposites since at least their Ascension. But I believe their conflict was more... cordial before Hastings, to the point that they would, at the very least, engage in conversation, the way Harry and Marcone do; they're fundamentally enemies, but they'll work together if they have to—such as when gathering power for their Courts (and all of Faerie) or defending assaults from the outgoing King of the Hill, Odin.

I’d like to review a few facts before I get into further supposition and theorizing.

1. Jim has stated that Mab has held her mantle for “over 1,000 years.” Unless the DF is actually set a century in the future, that means that the Fae Courts definitely existed during Hastings, and that Mab was the Queen of Winter.
2. The Winter Lady before Maeve was killed.
3. [The Winter Lady] “didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.”
Originally, I had thought that Hastings was when Mab and Titania became Queens of their Courts. However, the WOJ above kind of makes that impossible. Something prior killed both Queens of Faerie, something dating anywhere from 500(ish)–1,000 AD. It’s entirely possible that there was a conflict going on between the Queens during Saint Augustine’s spread of Christianity to Britain in 595. It’s possible that the Vikings were involved. There was a lot of conflict in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales during that period. The Danish invaded (and settled there), there were conflicts over succession, etc. It is also worth noting that I believe this to be the period during which the White Council in its current form was founded by Merlin.

Now, the Word of Jim on the “1,000 years” piece might have been disproven entirely by Peace Talks. This line, spoken by Corb during the initial attack on Marcone’s Castle, is a big, fat, honking, stinking cluebat that smacked me squarely in the face and left me a senseless:


--- Quote ---“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.”
--- End quote ---
Peace Talks, Chapter 29, page 276 on Nook.
“The Conqueror” is the appellation given to William of Normandy, the winner of the Battle of Hastings and King of England. There is obvious subtext here, and it actually makes me believe my earlier theory that I thought had been disproved by the WOJ!

Unless there is another “Conqueror” with which Mab rode, this means that Mab’s face was still “pimply” when she rode with William—in other words, a teenager, a young woman—and decidedly not the Queen of Winter. I think Corb was just being an a**hole when he used the adjective “pimply” (because I doubt that any Faerie Queen would really suffer from facial blemishes the way vanilla mortals do). 

No. I think that Mab was the Winter Lady at this point. For how long, I’m not sure—in fact, it may be a way to reconcile the WOJ and Corb’s taunt: Mab wasn’t THE Winter Queen for over a thousand years, but was A Winter Queen for that long.

One last note on the major players here:

“Odin” has been “Odin” for a long time. Before he was king of the hill in the Norse Pantheon, Gaul traditions held stories of “Woden,” a kind of wizard-like figure who was known for bravery and cunning. His story morphed into Odin over centuries. This is important.

Now, finally, I will get into the series of events that I think took place. I’ll try to be as clear as possible.

1. The Norse Pantheon held Stewardship over the Outer Gates for a time—or, at least, Odin, Woden, and any other “masks” (his term) he wore did. I think his stewardship ended with the Norse, however.
2.  Odin’s influence began to wane. The spread of Christianity throughout Europe likely limited his reputation over generations. I don’t think it works on American Gods rules, where belief = power, but I think it does matter. The important bit is that other challengers began to rise up.
3. The Faerie Courts begin gaining power and influence over mortal affairs. They grow significantly for a while. They influence politics. But the Summer and Winter Courts are still opposed; they aren’t working in concert. One seeks to rule the other.
4. Their political gamesmanship starts coming to a head on January 5th, 1066. The King of England dies. Succession is complicated, and several people claim the throne is theirs. Winter aligns themselves with the Normans (William). Summer aligns themselves with the Earl of Wessex (Harold).
5. Seeing a chance to weaken his strongest opponents (and likely foreseeing the death of King Edward), Odin’s own champion, Harald Hardrara, King of Norway claims he was promised the throne.
6. Harold (Summer-aligned) is crowned King. Them’s fightin’ words. Odin-aligned forces move to attack England. The date: September 25, 1066 (Gregorian). (September 19th, 1066 in the Julian Calendar—may or may not be important).
7. Summer is prepared. They attack the Viking forces at Stamford Bridge, and win. Odin retreats. It’s possible that he was distracted by an attack on the Outer Gates at this point, else I suspect he could have committed more to the fight. Regardless, the battle was lost, and Viking influence dramatically contracted permanently afterward. (This is pointed to as the end of the Age of Vikings by historians).
8. A few weeks later, William the Conqueror lands in England. The Battle of Hastings ensues. William (Winter) wins, and, essentially, becomes the King of England at this point. The date: October 14th, 1066 (Gregorian). October 8th, 1066 (Julian).
9. Here, I believe, is where the Queens die. I don’t think they fell during Hastings, but in the desperate clashes that were happening in England-Above-England. I believe that Winter and Summer clashed alongside the Normans and Anglo-Saxons.
10. I think their fight lasted for weeks. William’s fight wasn’t quite done after Hastings, too: he marched around England putting down resistance wherever he found it. He was crowned King until December 25th. In other words: the conflict continued for weeks afterward, and may very well have continued during Samhain, when Immortals can die.
11. The Queens kill each other—or, possibly, William kills them. At the beginning of this post, I claim that William is a Starborn. I think it’s possible that he was a Starborn, and might have been a Wizard for all we know (he kind of has to be for the 666-year clause to fit).

Here, now, my line of thinking is much less certain. I see two most likely possibilities, and trying to square either one of them with WOJ is difficult. Which one is correct depends on the starting state of the Faerie Courts.

   A.   Mab and Titania are already in the Courts, as Ladies. The Queens die, and they both ascend. Their daughters become the next Ladies.
   B.   Mab and Titania are humans (or changelings). The conflict between Courts is so severe that the Queens and the Ladies die. Mab and Titania then simultaneously become the Ladies, and then immediately ascend to Queen. Their daughters become the new-new Ladies. Note that it may not have been “immediate.” It’s possible that the Ladies died, Mab and Titania were Called, and then the Queens died. But the Ladies had to die first.
Winter won Hastings. I believe they also beat Summer, and became the “greater” of the two Courts.

Whichever of the above happened, I finish my claims by stating that, in the aftermath of Stamford Bridge and Hastings, with Norse influence waning and the Courts growing, Odin abdicated his role as Defender of Reality, and Winter—the entity of the next greatest power and influence—took over. Summer, which lost the struggle against Winter, was granted enough power and influence to serve as the check against Winter. (I assume this role was previously filled by Jotunheim during the Norse stewardship.)

And that wraps up my thoughts on Hastings, Stamford Bridge, and the Outer Gates.

Arguments and criticisms are welcome.

Avernite:
Minor criticism: Woden/Wodan/Wotan seems to be just the more southerly-Germanic name of Odin, not something Gaullish (which calls on Celtic associations).

Major gap: the theory misses a key component, to me - how did Faerie form? And was that still relevant at Hastings?
We know/suspect Hecate was involved in making Faerie, as were the Fates. Hecate is of course a classical Roman/Greek goddess, while Hastings is >500 years after the end of the classical era. Jim Butcher is American and so may be excused some over-emphasis on England, but he does clearly know about Charlemagne. The Fates are still attested as active in Norse mythology, though.

Major criticism: Harald Hardrada was Christian. By 1066 Norway had been Christian for half a century, and had on-and-off Christian kings (thanks Denmark) for half more, since around 960. He makes a poor champion of Odin, as do all the Vikings from about Cnut the Great (before that it really depends which Viking-in-England you're talking about).

If we are going by theme, it seems much more likely that Stamford bridge saw Summer beat Winter, forcing Winter to take up the bloody business on the Outer Gates while Summer got to play free with the world, only for the Papal hierarchy (backing William) to kick them out of the world too, reduced to an intermediate state between active and passive, while Winter got its full kicks in fighting the eternal fight (but still unable to be active in the world).

In this theory, the Fae were hitchhiking on the back of the rise of Christianity (while other Greco-Roman pagan gods were cast aside), and it was the Merlin (in the supernatural world) and William and various Danish and other Scandinavian kings throwing out the Fae leeches on behalf of the Christian hierarchy. Of course in that hypothesis, the Summer Fae may have held out in Ireland until the Norman conquest of Ireland (and no doubt, the northern reaches of Sweden/Norway held Winter Fae for a good while).

As to where, then, the Aesir were thrown off the Gates: that may still have been Merlin and Mab, after all Mab is associated both with (William?) the Conqueror and with Merlin, who is more associated with the fall of Roman Britain than the fall of Anglo-Saxon England.

Avernite:

So my alternate, semi-hijacking WAG: The Gates changed hands at another time than Hastings. The Faerie Courts were Hecate and others' answer to the rise of Christianity. Arthur and his Knights were on the isle where those Courts were forged. Merlin and Mab-pre-Lady danced their game, bamboozling the Aesir, taking the Gates, and securing the Anglosaxons, Welsh and Irish for the White Council and Faerie Courts. Merlin did this in cooperation with the rising Christians, and eventually cast out Mab for falling in with the Fae, when his design had simply been to cast out ALL supernatural predators (though he had failed to figure out what else to do with the Outer Gates, so Mab probably had her reasons). As trigger of the casting out, or right after it, Mab became Winter Lady and Titania become Summer Lady.

Exiled from the Gates, the Aesir and their armies lashed out against the world and the English, their initial counters giving rise to the Anglo-Saxons and after their exile the Viking invasions when the Anglo-Saxons were defeated/recruited for Council and Courts.

The Aesir, however, were marginalized. What happened next was the slow schism in Faerie. I suppose Winter and Summer already existed, but more cooperatively. As time went on, and the pickings got slimmer while the burden of the Gates got larger, Winter and Summer started squabbling over the British Islands, but still a bit disorganized. This coincides with the Heptarchy, where Winter, Summer, and various Wyld Fae jockeyed for power while fending off the Vikings.

Eventually, at Edington (or some other Wessexian victory), the Courts snagged some strong Aesir/Vanir (Thor? Tyr? Frey? Freyja? The Norse Fates?) and incorporated its power into the Courts, allowing their and Christianity's expansion into Scandinavia (spearheaded by Winter, who swooped up the remaining Aesir as allies or cast them adrift to go wrestle or something :p ) and definitively launching the Courts into effective power over the Wyld (Wyld can still be free, but when the Queen called, they'd listen; before then only the Mothers had such influence).

Winter established itself firmly in Scandinavia, and under Cnut held sway in England too, but at this point Summer and Winter were often openly at war rather than just jockeying.
In 1066, this came to a head as Summer cast Winter out utterly from the isles. In response, Winter sent its strongest forces supported by the then-Winter-Queen from Norway to attempt to wrest the island back (but were defeated, and the Queen died somewhere). Playing plans-within-plans, Mab joined up with William instead, allying as of old with the anti-other-supernaturals Christians.
Summer, flush from its victory, marched south to face William... and Mab was instrumental in the Summer Queen's death. Titania, Lady before then, has never truly forgiven Mab for that apparent betrayal of 'the Courts' to outside powers, even as Mab sees it as a rational response to Summer gaining too much power and killing Winter's Queen. That battle, therefore, made them not-talk, even as the Ladies slowly but surely rebuilt the general idea that the Courts together gain power from among the world.

TheCuriousFan:
On the subject of the gates changing hands, there's this recent WoJ to consider.

--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 06, 2020, 10:48:45 AM ---So um, her- slight tangent based on her role which is to be kind of like at the gates when Mab's busy and all that stuff, as far as the guardianship of the gates over time, has it kind of been a cycle where one pantheon falls, the next one picks it up because the other one lost worship and this one got stronger? Or has there always been kind of like a coalition of whichever was top dog at the time was the one in charge?

It's almost always been a bit of a coalition. The fae have always kind of been the foot-soldiers of what was going on, but it's been more recently that they've been given autonomy, which is to say Mab and Titania. And when I say recently I mean like within the past few thousand years. As far as the immortal things are concerned, recent events are, you know, human history.

And were they kind of- to circumvent that whole problem of a continual transition because it seems like if you're losing power based on faith you'd want something a little more permanent like a mantle that goes and stays empowered at all times.

It was less about that... less about the whole thing running on faith and more about the fact that occasionally things got bad and the fae needed backup and that would be when "okay we've got to cover this one, who's got this one? Uhh how about Asgard? Yeah Asgard gets this one, go guys" you know like that. And that was how it went for a long time, pre-history that was pretty much how it went. But as things have gone on, the past couple of thousand years has been mostly the fae in charge. Because essentially they got a sponsor and then they were able to get some actual leadership put in place so.

They got a sponsor?

Yeah I've actually told everybody about it already, it's in the books, you'll have to come up with it yourselves.

Reread!

I know right? That's the next year of our life.

I'll give you a hint, reread Skin Game.
--- End quote ---

morriswalters:
That would seem to make Hades the sponsor.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page