The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
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deadvoid:
--- Quote from: bigdangmoose on December 23, 2020, 12:07:56 AM ---Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.
And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.
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can escape Winter & survive, then not in any way that keeps her above the ground? you completely lost me
Mab was pushing Molly so she'd be prepared to be a Queen, that's her (or maybe more accurately Mother's) idea of Fae Court power hierarchy, Lady has to be a competent successor to wield Winter with all of its power & duties whenever needed in order to maintain the balance; it's been major theme of several books now. She even explicitly told Harry to kill Molly if she fell in Battle of Bean because Molly wasn't fully prepared, that's Jim vehicle to deliver the current situation to readers: Molly isn't fully Fae yet despite not being fully human too or otherwise her magic wouldn't allow her to use electronics. She was telling Molly drop the humanity & embrace Winter fully, rip the bandaid quickly & accept the reality, because according to her clinging to humanity is futile & won't end well. Regardless if she's correct (she did have extensive experience there), Mab haven't been anything but straight forward about the job descriptions & its expectations, not like she can lie about them if she tried.
bigdangmoose:
--- Quote from: deadvoid on December 23, 2020, 02:10:14 AM ---can escape Winter & survive, then not in any way that keeps her above the ground? you completely lost me
Mab was pushing Molly so she'd be prepared to be a Queen, that's her (or maybe more accurately Mother's) idea of Fae Court power hierarchy, Lady has to be a competent successor to wield Winter with all of its power & duties whenever needed in order to maintain the balance; it's been major theme of several books now. She even explicitly told Harry to kill Molly if she fell in Battle of Bean because Molly wasn't fully prepared, that's Jim vehicle to deliver the current situation to readers: Molly isn't fully Fae yet despite not being fully human too or otherwise her magic wouldn't allow her to use electronics. She was telling Molly drop the humanity & embrace Winter fully, rip the bandaid quickly & accept the reality, because according to her clinging to humanity is futile & won't end well. Regardless if she's correct (she did have extensive experience there), Mab haven't been anything but straight forward about the job descriptions & its expectations, not like she can lie about them if she tried.
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I said we know that there is a way for Molly to lose the mantle and survive. Molly know that she can lose the mantle, but as far as she knows, she will have to die to do it. That was the reference of keeping above ground.
And as for lies, just look at the end of GS. She technically lies to Harry because she thinks she can control him, deceive him. She could just as easily tell Molly to lose the humanity to be a better Queen because she knows that it will be a quick move to be more powerful. But she also knows her Knight and that her Lady is just like her Knight. So by telling her a partial truth, she may be pushing her to be a better Lady than her own daughter by being herself. Half truth with the fae are not lies, just not the whole truth. And yes, Molly becoming Queen so soon wouldn't be good for her. But Molly the Queen after getting a good hold of her abilities and keeping her humanity may be what Winter needs, and Mab may be jealous of that because she went through becoming Queen and not having time to master the balance as Lady.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: bigdangmoose on December 23, 2020, 12:07:56 AM ---Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.
And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.
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I do not think Maeve let her humanity go. All those mommy issues and so on they are not good but they are very human. Humanity is much more than just the good bits.
Mab has one vision about what a good winter queen should be but that is not the only vision possible. It might not even be the best one for this role. Kringle clearly approves of what Molly was doing and that is worth something. It shows that her path was not stupid.
And I do not think escape is the plan for Molly. This is important work. She wants to do it and to make the best of it. She might even have lunches with Uriel in future. Mab has her opinions but she is prepared to listen to others. She clearly thinks about what Molly tells her and let’s her find her way even if she expresses her strong opinions, she does not order her in this.
This is also about what mother summer said to Harry, about keeping the core of what you are. Maybe even about how the old mother summer could pension off.
Jim is shifting the rules here or telling us what usually happens can be much more complicated.
deadvoid:
I can't say I know what way Molly can leave her Winter mantle, can't tell which Lady quit her job & survived.
--- Quote from: bigdangmoose on December 23, 2020, 04:37:31 AM ---And as for lies, just look at the end of GS. She technically lies to Harry because she thinks she can control him, deceive him. She could just as easily tell Molly to lose the humanity to be a better Queen because she knows that it will be a quick move to be more powerful. But she also knows her Knight and that her Lady is just like her Knight.
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If we're going with technicalities here, in the same Ghost Story's chapter Harry pointed out that technically Uriel manipulated him into a gambit with the risk of Harry losing his literal, actual, soul. So why do Mab gets labelled as Bad when she had been proven more forthcoming whenever she said something to Harry or Molly than Uriel, who won't even admit anything to Harry? When have she reneged on what she said she will do to/for Harry, even he remarked that Mab keeps her words.
--- Quote ---So by telling her a partial truth, she may be pushing her to be a better Lady than her own daughter by being herself. Half truth with the fae are not lies, just not the whole truth. And yes, Molly becoming Queen so soon wouldn't be good for her. But Molly the Queen after getting a good hold of her abilities and keeping her humanity may be what Winter needs, and Mab may be jealous of that because she went through becoming Queen and not having time to master the balance as Lady.
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nah I don't buy it, it sounds very much like conjecture to me, I mean unless there's more than twice of interactions/action and/or there are inconsistencies in the (behavioural) pattern, I don't make guesses on what a character might be up to; and for Mab this is very much her standard pattern, a consistent & repeated pattern, too. Is it possible? Yes of course anything is possible, after all Jim still considers her a villain, but there's nothing solid to back it up.
Mira:
--- Quote from: deadvoid on December 22, 2020, 11:51:34 PM ---that's exactly what she meant, it's pretty clear.
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Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.
--- Quote ---If we're going with technicalities here, in the same Ghost Story's chapter Harry pointed out that technically Uriel manipulated him into a gambit with the risk of Harry losing his literal, actual, soul. So why do Mab gets labelled as Bad when she had been proven more forthcoming whenever she said something to Harry or Molly than Uriel, who won't even admit anything to Harry? When have she reneged on what she said she will do to/for Harry, even he remarked that Mab keeps her words.
--- End quote ---
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk. He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk. It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.
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