Author Topic: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago  (Read 3492 times)

Offline Kindler

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I've been away from the forum for a while (nothing personal, it's just been a hectic year since the Plague broke out); I've gone over most of the threads from the past few months (at least the titles and first page or two), but please forgive me if this has been asked and discussed ad nauseum previously. Since it's still new, I'm prioritizing this over finishing a lengthy post about Hastings.

Personally, I think a lot of people may have overlooked this bit; I think it's more important than it appears at first glance.

1. At the end of Battle Ground, Harry performs a ceremony during which he knights about fifty of his volunteers from the Battle of the Bean (those who were willing to attend the funeral/memorial). He names them "The Knights of the Bean and Defenders of Chicago."

2. He gives each of them a pin with a lima bean on it, and makes this precise promise to them: "If you or anyone you love is ever in danger, come and find me. If it isn't you, tell them to show me this. I will help. No questions asked."

There are a handful of ways to interpret this—meaning the consequences of giving them favors, not really his motivation for doing so. I think his motivation is pretty clear: Harry wanted to repay them for their help; I don't think Chicago would've survived without them. It makes sense that he'd want to do what he could to help them out after they gave (and lost) so much.

But I think there are more consequences (and implications) than Harry promising a favor to fifty-ish people.

1. He balanced the scales. They rendered him a service, so he must fulfill his end of an unspoken bargain by offering one in kind. The implication here is that Harry is becoming more Fae than he was at the start of the book; sure, that's kind of obvious, and there are blatant signs starting in Cold Days about this exact thing happening. But this is the first time we've seen something like this from Harry at this scale (which is fair, because we've never seen ANYTHING like the Banner, either).

2. He gave himself an obligation. He promised to help them, no questions asked. Harry can't turn them down (not that he would unless it was something REALLY bad), or he'll face consequences.

But as Lea pointed out in Ghost Story, Harry's obligations are Winter's obligations too; Mab herself may be thereby bound to fulfill the promise if Harry is unable to. I don't know how she'll react to it if it comes to that, but regardless, this could get messy somewhere down the line.

3. Harry has set himself up as a kind of... I don't even really know. A Champion?
In my head, this promise is similar to what Harry's done with Toot Toot since Storm Front. One of my favorite scenes in the duology was everyone coming to a dead stop when Harry called up the 'Za Lord's Guard and the sky was blanketed with the Little Folk.

His relationship with them was originally based on obligation and payment; as Harry continued to keep his promises with the Little Folk, Toot Toot got bigger and more Fae joined the Guard.

It's not exactly the same—humans aren't going to double in size because someone kept a promise—but I think that there is some kind of exchange of power taking place here.
I've mentioned many times on this forum over the years that Mother Summer's words in Cold Days—"Power has purpose"—has made me wonder if the inverse is true: "Purpose has power."

It's literally true for the Fae: they can gain power literally by bargaining (in other words, by acquiring a purpose and fulfilling it). We saw it with the explanation of Fidelacchius's transformation in Peace Talks—it gained power by limiting the ways that power can be applied.

In other words: I think that Harry did more than he intended to with this Knighting ceremony. I think he not only gave those fifty people a bit of power (I don't mean literally; for them, the power they received is the ability to ask a guy who can throw fire around for a favor), he received some in return, beyond what he was given by their service on the battlefield.

I don't know how this power will be expressed in the future. It may be something as (relatively) small as a part of the Legend of Harry Dresden—the rumors and whispers spreading about the "Mad Wizard Dresden," who very well might show up and burn your house down if you kick the wrong puppy. It's been stated that Harry's reputation is a big part of what has made him effective in the past; he's almost a Terror Hero at this point. Maybe this is just going to spread that reputation even further, and that'll be it.

Maybe some of these Knights of the Bean will show back up in the future, too. Maybe we'll find out later on that being called by the Winter Knight's Banner once makes it possible to be Called once more. Maybe they'll join the base of Power Harry is working on from his Scottish-by-way-of-Chicago Castle.
Or maybe they'll be used as a framing device for the upcoming Twelve Months piece that I've seen mentioned. If it's one story per month, it could be narratively useful for Harry fulfilling twelve favors, or something (and it'd be nice if it didn't require any incineration or flash freezing).

Does anyone have any other thoughts? Am I overthinking this to begin with, and is this mostly something Jim put in there because it was cool?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 06:59:35 PM by Kindler »

Offline deadvoid

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2020, 07:36:15 PM »
I interpret it as the help doesn't really have to be Harry personally, so it doesn't matter who would come to their aid whether it's Paranet or Za Lor or Winter, and it's in line with Harry's view that the weak & downtrodden (according to White Council's standard, vanilla human in this case) should have more protection instead of being left out in the dark & at the mercy of stronger beings or unknown/arcane laws. It is akin to him having more allegiance in Little People, yes.

Offline grogleberry

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2020, 11:25:31 PM »
2. He gave himself an obligation. He promised to help them, no questions asked. Harry can't turn them down (not that he would unless it was something REALLY bad), or he'll face consequences.

But as Lea pointed out in Ghost Story, Harry's obligations are Winter's obligations too; Mab herself may be thereby bound to fulfill the promise if Harry is unable to. I don't know how she'll react to it if it comes to that, but regardless, this could get messy somewhere down the line.

On this point, I'm reminded of something Harry said, probably to Thomas, in Small Favor, about the nature of Summer's obligation to him.

He has his oak-leaf brooch given to him by the Summer Lady, and Thomas suggests he call in his favour, to which Harry replies "maybe their way of helping me would be breaking my back to remove me from danger" or something to that effect.

I'd imagine that if they came to Harry looking for someone to help them rob a bank, he'd help them by calling their spouse, tipping off the bank, or otherwise "helping" them, by helping them avoid getting into trouble, and not just doing whatever they want.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2020, 07:16:36 AM »
If Harry is really becoming more like the Fae, then he'll be able to track any of the pins he handed out.
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Offline Avernite

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2020, 07:20:05 PM »
If Harry is really becoming more like the Fae, then he'll be able to track any of the pins he handed out.
Not that he couldn't before...

But this does seem sensible. Maybe Harry's banner will be his answer to the Wild Hunt, eventually. His Knights to counter/match the Erlking.

Offline toodeep

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2020, 08:28:35 PM »
I think it is clear that this obligation will extend to winter as long as he is their knight, so even if something does happen to him, winter would be on the hook to pay these debts - just look at the debts winter handled while he was "gone" like with the guard. 

I think this will extend is "power" through providing him with some authority/trust with the people of Chicago.  As his knights call in their debts it will become known that:
1.  He pays his debts
2.  He's around to help Chicago

Harry talked like he wanted to start an organization in Chicago, potentially of a scope to rival Marcone's.  He has the BFS, the paranet, and his knights to start with.  I think the maintaining of this connection with these people, these people who are willing to fight for Chicago and who have followed him before, is definitely him extending his authority and laying the groundwork for his new organization, including the debt a leader has to his followers...

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2020, 09:30:47 PM »
Harry has a castle, retainers, Excalibur, and he started a order of knights. He's either paralleling Merlin or Arthur pretty hard with just that. You could stretch it with the Paranet and say he united a nation. That's much less of a stretch if (probably when) the Paranet becomes an Accorded Nation.

He's got a lot of additional Merlin parallels, so when he finally does give out Amoracchius, is that person going to be the new Arthur? (I'd say original is exceedingly unlikely because that would take the focus off Harry too much).

Additional Merlin parallels off the top of my head:
(click to show/hide)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2020, 01:30:02 AM »
Harry has a castle, retainers, Excalibur, and he started a order of knights. He's either paralleling Merlin or Arthur pretty hard with just that. You could stretch it with the Paranet and say he united a nation. That's much less of a stretch if (probably when) the Paranet becomes an Accorded Nation.

I think that's unlikely.  An accorded nation needs to be able to defend itself.  Many members of the Paranet have useful skills, but as far as we know there are only two fighters, Harry and Elaine; and Elaine wants to keep a low profile.  If Harry could get some (mostly sketchy) characters like Kinkaid or Goodman Grey to join, that would certainly help, but it probably wouldn't be enough.  Now if a few dozen disgruntled wizards; not sorcerers, became fed up with the White Council, and they had combat skills, then the Paranet would start to have potential to be what Bad Alias is talking about.

It's not an impossible idea but think about the broader implications.  The White Council leadership would be p*ssed.  They would see it as the beginning of a Black Council.  Who knows, maybe that will be how Harry will challenge the White Council, but at present it seems like a longshot to me.   

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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2020, 03:58:27 PM »
I don't think Mab would be pissed off at all if Winter ends up having to cover a few of Harry's promises of protection to the survivors. The banner was of Winter. They fought for her side. It's entirely proper to repay their actions - she'd probably be pissed if he failed to - and if her vassal is otherwise occupied on his duties, it's the liege's responsibility to cover the bargain as he would have.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2020, 09:10:13 AM »
I think that's unlikely.  An accorded nation needs to be able to defend itself.  Many members of the Paranet have useful skills, but as far as we know there are only two fighters, Harry and Elaine; and Elaine wants to keep a low profile.
Jim was asked what the Paranet would need to do to become a member of the Accords. He said something about proving the could handle themselves and how it would take some chaotic events for them to have the opportunity. His answer indicated they would almost certainly have the opportunity.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2020, 09:20:32 AM »
Jim was asked what the Paranet would need to do to become a member of the Accords. He said something about proving the could handle themselves and how it would take some chaotic events for them to have the opportunity. His answer indicated they would almost certainly have the opportunity.
And here's the quote:
Priscellie: What would the Paranet have to do to be considered a big enough body to sign the accords? And this is from poly? granada?

Jim: Oh they'd have to win some fights, is what they'd have to do. At the end of the day, in the supernatural world, among the various political powers, what gets you respect is the ability to thrash them. And if you can do that then they have to take you seriously because if they don't then you can thrash them. So that would be what they would really have to do, it would be something, a very difficult thing for them to do. It'd take an awful lot of coordination and leadership so it would take an awful extreme situation for something like that to come together. And I can't imagine where in the Dresden Files universe an extreme situation like that might exist *smirks and lifts mug while Priscellie laughs*.
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Offline TrueMonk

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Re: BG ENDING SPOILERS: The Knights of the B*** and Defenders of Chicago
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2020, 12:48:52 AM »
I more or less agree with all your points, I don't think you are over thinking it :-)