The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Elders of the Black Court

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Yuillegan:
Did the Elders seem a bit...nerfed to everyone?

They did to me. Let's look back on what we know.

1. Mavra was there, and she is considered a Wizard level talent as per Blood Rites - not a mere Sorcerer (who are only skilled in destructive magic). And was implied to be the least powerful and important of the Elders as she had to be the drummer. Considering what we have seen of her this says a lot.

2. The other Elders seemed pretty strong (although none used Mavra's typical "dark energy" magic). Perhaps Jim decided to do more thematically, or perhaps he decided there is more than one style of magic that the Black Court Elders use.

3. However, Dresden referred to them all as Sorcerer's rather than Wizards. Now while this is possible, it seems unlikely that Mavra's Elders would be less knowledgeable and proficient than Mavra herself. No more likely than Luccio being more proficient and knowledgeable than any member of the Senior Council - even if she is a better battle mage than some of them. SO for Dresden to refer to them as Sorcerer's is incongruous and seems both arrogant and unreasonably dismissive, if not outright foolish and uninformed.

4. On the other hand, they didn't seem to be that skillful or smart. Sort of brutish and crude. Not even as scary as Grevane, even though physically they surely are still more scary than most. Certainly not the almost godlike terrors of the Red Court (the Lords of the Outer Night) - which I will grant are quite different to them considering how they might have gained their power. But there is a snag.

5. The snag is that in an old WOJ when asked "Who could beat Mab?" Jim answered that most couldn't even if they wanted to, but only a few beings/groups we had met had the horsepower, and even then this assumed Mab didn't have her army and was outside of her domain. Granted, the rankings and list might have changed a bit but the answer was this:

--- Quote ---Quote from: Warden John Marcone on March 04, 2009, 05:48:02 PM
I’m still curious about who could hurt Mab.  Other than Titania, nobody comes to mind.

Hmmm.  In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really “win” as much as “continue to exist.”  Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth.  But here’s who has the necessary horsepower do it:

o   Titania–though it would be a coin toss.  Almost literally.
o   The Mothers (who wouldn’t)
o   The White Council.  As in, ALL the White Council.  Every wizard on the planet.  And they’d need her Name.
o   Drakul.
o   Ferrovax.
o   The Red Court–again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn’t be good.
o   The entire White Court–very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o   Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o   A union of the old Elders of the Black Court.  They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.

All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description.  Which she does.

There’s a REASON that when Mab said, “Sign these Accords and abide by them,” people listened. :)
--- End quote ---

I don't know what book Jim read, but I doubt all of them even with Drakul could have taken Mab. Now let's say Drakul was holding back in his fight against the Wardens, sure. Maybe he could do it. Let's say that perhaps those 6 Black Court were not all the "old Elders of the Black Court". Maybe some have died since then - the quote does say the White Court had them hunted down. Maybe some didn't even join Drakul and were waiting back at base (although Jim said in an interview the Drakul normally likes to surround himself with a small A-Team of vampires and it was Dracula that tried to spread the thing and turn it into a Court).

Also, was Jim really saying that the entire Red Court of Vampires (let's say 1000 vamps) plus the 13 Lords of the Outer Night (each of whom is almost a demigod) AND the Red King (Kukulcan) would be required to beat JUST the Queen of Winter herself? I'd have accepted all the normal Red Court Vamps, or the Lords of the Outer Night + Red King. But both seems like far more than necessary.

Just seems all a bit inconsistent - which is somewhat expected over so many years of writing a series. But still, it would be nice to get some clarification on whether those Elders in Battle Ground were the ones he referred to, and if so, why did they seem so weak? It seemed like without Drakul that Harry and the Wardens (not even including River Shoulders and Listens-to-Wind) could have taken them out.

And I have a whole other thread on how underpowered and underwhelming Drakul was. Sigh.

TheCuriousFan:
Yeah they seem like a pretty clear case of the group getting nerfed from their early sketch version since that early version is too powerful to use in the story without a TPK.

Kindler:
Could be the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu. One ninja takes the protagonist twenty minutes to beat, but the protagonist can take down one per second when there are a hundred of them.
For a non-meta answer, yes, I do think that they were mildly disappointing. But I've also only read PT and BG once thus far (I'm listening to them now, but since the Plague started I haven't been driving much, so only listen to audiobooks for 15-30 minutes per day when I'm out with the dogs).
They did manage to kill Wardens in a straight up fight, when they were together, and "ready" (though I question whether you can ever really be ready to fight Drakul). Damn shame about Wild Bill, too. I liked him. Though I'm sure we'll see Chandler again (in fact, I'm surprised he didn't pop back up in BG).
From what I remember, Drakul didn't even seem to be really trying. I wonder what would've happened if someone like Morgan or Luccio were around for that fight—older battlemages with plenty of power to throw around and the technique to match.

The_Sibelis:
I took the remark to mean they had less scope with their power even though they had more power than Mavra. Like harry, they're big british thugs by comparison. I think, it's because Mavra actually knew magic as a mortal where as the elders shown did not. When they can, in my mind/headcanon, simply eat someone and gain more power I don't think they've had a strong urge to study deeper into it than necessary.
Another thing.. on the VS Mab power levels. Blamps seem to have some absolutely extreme mind/willpower. The way they basically locked the wardens down and broke their mind. I think Mab might have more elemental power at her disposal but on the level of one on one, Drakul or the combined elders could match her. I do notice he said a reunion of the old elders. Maybe he meant when they were at full strength. For some reason I thought there were 30 elders it was said somewhere? Woj?
And Drakul was sooo holding back. Lord Raith gave it more of a go than he did really. He wasn't eager for the kill, he was just batting fly's around.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 14, 2020, 09:27:14 AM ---Yeah they seem like a pretty clear case of the group getting nerfed from their early sketch version since that early version is too powerful to use in the story without a TPK.

--- End quote ---
Yeah it seems so. I mean, Jim could have written something like that in...but he chose not to.


--- Quote from: Kindler on December 14, 2020, 03:35:46 PM ---Could be the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu. One ninja takes the protagonist twenty minutes to beat, but the protagonist can take down one per second when there are a hundred of them.
For a non-meta answer, yes, I do think that they were mildly disappointing. But I've also only read PT and BG once thus far (I'm listening to them now, but since the Plague started I haven't been driving much, so only listen to audiobooks for 15-30 minutes per day when I'm out with the dogs).
They did manage to kill Wardens in a straight up fight, when they were together, and "ready" (though I question whether you can ever really be ready to fight Drakul). Damn shame about Wild Bill, too. I liked him. Though I'm sure we'll see Chandler again (in fact, I'm surprised he didn't pop back up in BG).
From what I remember, Drakul didn't even seem to be really trying. I wonder what would've happened if someone like Morgan or Luccio were around for that fight—older battlemages with plenty of power to throw around and the technique to match.

--- End quote ---
Indeed, I think that's a reasonable meta analysis. Just a very disappointing idea really. They only really beat the Warden's because Drakul entered the fray, and he took out Chandler and immobilisedg Ramirez and Harry in a matter of moments. Yoshimo and Wild Bill ran for cover (and Bill probably would have died had Chandler not stepped in), but while Dresden was distracted and Ramirez was down, Yoshimo and Bill were taken out - but the fight was both of them versus roughly 4 BCVs (5 if Mavra helped, as one was taken out by Ramirez and/or Bill - the writing seems to be inconsistent). Which actually is a very hard fight. I wonder if it had been a straight 2 on 2 whether Yoshimo and Bill would have won. And none of it explains why Drakul didn't just flatten them all with his Will attack. Or why Drakul was surprised by River Shoulders, as presumably he has super senses (Mavra has superhuman hearing) and he may even be able to Listen like Dresden as that could be a Starborn trick. Even if River was somehow masked from sight, sound, smell and touch...I can't really see Drakul not hearing a 12 foot obelisk being torn out of the ground. Maybe he was too distracted by Dresden...whatever. It does seem like Drakul wasn't trying to kill them all however, as you say. And I am not sure Bill and Yoshimo are "dead" exactly...I suspect they have been turned. I agree, it would have been interesting if Morgan or Luccio were around (especially at full strength - pre Dead Beat Luccio especially, plus the Warden blades). However I doubt either of them would have been a match for Drakul. If LtW (who matched a Skinwalker and caused it to flee - even if was it because it couldn't easily win) was getting smacked around by Drakul, even with River and Harry aiding him, I doubt they would have lasted long. LtW didn't seem to think they would have survived if Drakul hadn't left. Ebeneezer was afraid of Drakul (and we've seen what he can do). I doubt any single member of the Senior Council could have taken him; perhaps not even all of them. According to the quote above Drakul could take out Mab on his own, and as above it seems that the ENTIRE White Council would be needed to beat her (plus her Name). But then again...it does seem like that list is a bit out of date.


--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on December 15, 2020, 12:16:05 AM ---I took the remark to mean they had less scope with their power even though they had more power than Mavra. Like harry, they're big british thugs by comparison. I think, it's because Mavra actually knew magic as a mortal where as the elders shown did not. When they can, in my mind/headcanon, simply eat someone and gain more power I don't think they've had a strong urge to study deeper into it than necessary.
Another thing.. on the VS Mab power levels. Blamps seem to have some absolutely extreme mind/willpower. The way they basically locked the wardens down and broke their mind. I think Mab might have more elemental power at her disposal but on the level of one on one, Drakul or the combined elders could match her. I do notice he said a reunion of the old elders. Maybe he meant when they were at full strength. For some reason I thought there were 30 elders it was said somewhere? Woj?
And Drakul was sooo holding back. Lord Raith gave it more of a go than he did really. He wasn't eager for the kill, he was just batting fly's around.

--- End quote ---
Great pick up Sibelis! You reminded me of that WOJ and I found it, along with some other interesting ones. I think we can reasonably guess that most of those present in BG while being older and more senior (and more powerful) than Mavra, they were not the original Elders of the Black Court. Which begs the question, just how badass were those guys? Somewhere between what we saw and Drakul. Because while Harry called them "Elders" as you and I both have guessed, I suspect they were not the "original" 30 Elders. And even if they were, 30 of those guys would have been scary enough. We only saw 5.
Not sure I am with you that Mavra is more likely a better user of magic than the others (although that is possible), at any rate Drakul seems to pick Wizards as his recruits so there isn't much reason to suspect that those others were not Wizards either (as mortals, let alone as Vampires). But your head canon is as good a reason as any I think.

I think you're onto something with the extreme mind/will magic. Especially when you consider all Vampires we have seen have some version of it. Not to mention at the strongest level, beings like Drakul and the Lords of the Outer Night and the Red King seem to have that godlike Will attack power. Not to mention that the Corpsetaker's mind magic seems to be related to it's Necromantic knowledge, and the Black Court are out there using that same dark power. Maybe it's a matter of the right tool for the job. Perhaps those kind of attacks would be uniquely effective at taking out a being like Mab. I wonder if the other "original Elders" were more like the Lords of the Outer Night and could use their Wills as weapons?

And you are quite right, Drakul was holding back. But I still have no idea why, which is incredibly frustrating.

Anyway here are the relevant WOJs, plus some interesting other ones.


--- Quote ---2009 WoJ forum post
4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should’ve wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself…just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn’t the same thing as power in the material world.  And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city).  Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley  And that’s assuming that you don’t have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon.  Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts.  *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.
(and shouldn’t the black court be the most numerous? in blood rites, ebenezer mentioned after a few weeks, there would be dozens or even hundreds of vamps, so y don’t the black court vamps just settle down in africa or india and start biting away?)
Nukes.  :)
You get all /that/ assertive, and you risk stirring mortals into awareness.  And we monkeys are /dangerous/ in large groups, especially with all our ferromancy (technology).
There’s also a psychological issue on behalf of the vampires.  Bear in mind that evolution made a pretty brutal selection among the Black Court.  The ones who survived and prospered were those who avoided notice, respected the potential danger mortals represented, and who were generally quick to leave town rather than charge into a confrontation.
In any personal-scale conflict, a mature BC vamp is gonna tear holes through any mortal or White Court vampire.  But the mortals started cheating, and doing all their fighting in angry mobs, and creating weapons that were ridiculously overpowered for the job of killing one another which could actually inconvenience, wound, or even kill a BC vamp.  Murphy did all right in that BC nest, because she had allies, appropriate weapons and (most importantly) knowledge and a plan.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.
2015 AMA
How are Black Court Master Vampires made/elevated? Elders?
Mainly by growing more powerful by feeding on more lives. The more you kill, the stronger you are, as a Black Court vamp. Also by demonstrating that you can beat the stuffing out of your rivals. They’re very much a Darwinian society of might-makes-right.
But most of the old ones worked out that you can’t just go on killing sprees to farm XP. You’re helpless a large portion of every day, and the food will come find you and end you. So they wait for good opportunities for that kind of thing. Wars, famines, and plagues are awesome for leveling up.
2016 Reddit Podcast Q&A
When are we going to see Mavra again?
Um… 19?  *pondering*  Wait, I’m sorry we’ll definitely see her in Mirror Mirror.  She’s a fast ally of Dresden’s in Mirror Mirror.
2016 Reddit Podcast Q&A
When your a black court vampire who essentially just gets to stay alive for as long as you want, time is much different to an immortal or virtual immortal than it is to one of us.
How old is she?
I think she’s about 600.

WoJ on Vampires
Blampires, and the Stokerlipse
Quote from: jimbutcher on June 21, 2011, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: Drulinda
if it came to it would he [Harry] actually be able to use necromancy on mavra?

Harry wasn’t bluffing.  ::)
[...]
The BC didn’t /know/ about the WC’s involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic.  The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic.  They don’t have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway?  If one needs to vent one’s spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.

The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films. :)

--- End quote ---

Also this interesting bit about Lord Raith:

--- Quote ---2016 Reddit Podcast Q&A
How old is Lord Raith?
He’s a couple thousand years old.  He’s got 2 thousand years of paranoia kinda built up.  Plus he’s been absolutely bonkers the past 30 years or so.  He’s hardly functional as a vampire, he’s getting to where he’s not evne functional as a figure head for much longer.  That’s going to be a problem for lara to deal with.
Will we find out about Lord Raith’s library?
There’s kind of a long game going on in the Dresden Files, and Lord Raith has been involved in it in the last couple of cycle’s it’s gone on.  He’s been trying to educate himself about it, and he meant to be a player in it this time it came around, but getting involved with Margret kind of screwed him over.
Lara’s got his library now and knows everything he knows, which explains a lot of her actions.
later in the video
--- End quote ---

Now we have an idea of the game, and some of the players (both current and former). Drakul does seem to look a bit like Lord Raith too...and even a bit like the Red King. Just saying. Make of that what you will. What I found most interesting was that Lord Raith has been involved in the Cycle a few times, but only recently tried to become a 'player'. I wonder what role he played previously? And what the difference is between the 'players' and those who are merely involved?

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