Author Topic: Surprises  (Read 4934 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Surprises
« on: December 06, 2020, 02:22:44 AM »
Marcone's reveal as a Knight was one I am pretty sure no one predicted.

He was a Denarian for potentially 6 years in the series before it came out, and the seeds were planted even longer ago by Jim.

Another reveal was Justine as Nemesis, but also that Nemesis was He Who Walks Beside (which some did guess at).

What other surprises have been laid? Particularly ones we can tell from the books?

I will lay out a few but please add your own and let me know what you think.

Cowl.
The line in DB about Cowl being a Goethe fan could hint at any of these candidates.
1. Cowl is...Justin. (Goethe literally wrote the Sorcerer's apprentice - if that isn't a hint what is?)
2. Cowl is...Simon (Goethe also wrote about Vampires in The Bride of Corinth)
3. Cowl is...Nicodemus (Goethe's most famous work is Faust)

That line about Goethe could hint at any of the above. Goethe also wrote about Prometheus, Thule, Walpurgis - all things that could hint toward the ideals and origins of Cowl and his organization.
The obvious thing is that he meant The Erlkoenig (The Erlking) which Goethe also wrote, but we have to look a little deeper.

Other candidates for Cowl include: Arthur Langtry, LtW, Ebeneezer, Marcone, an unrevealed character, Kemmler.

Kumori
1. Elaine is Kumori. The most obvious and likely, but not without it's problems.
2. Kumori is Simon's female apprentice (who I have lost the name of).
3. Faith Astor is Kumori.
4. Jenny Sells is Kumori.

Harry's Mom was a bit evil
- This seems likely but hasn't been addressed properly

Ebeneezer is evil.
- Definitely dodgy, might actually be very bad.

Lara and Eb
- Previous relationship

Kincaid is Drakul's son
- But not necessarily Dracula. The second less impressive son. But maybe the one Drakul likes more.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 03:12:02 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2020, 02:27:26 AM »
Kumori as Faith Astor is also a theory, especially since Faith is going to come back as a femme fatale in the final pre-BAT book.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2020, 02:33:37 AM »
Added in! I remember that theory now, certainly a viable option.

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2020, 02:39:48 AM »
Simon Cowl also has the fact that by Jim's own admission a lot of names are puns/jokes.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3913
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2020, 04:26:07 AM »
Added in! I remember that theory now, certainly a viable option.

Though I think Kumori is probably Elaine or Faith Astor, another possibility that's been raised is Victor Sells' daughter, if she inherited a talent. Going by the WOJ that Kumori's identity would cause Harry pain, 'she went dark because of missing a father figure ... because Harry killed him' would do it.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2020, 09:54:45 PM »
Something more is going on with Harry's relationship with Odin.
1. Odin is not a reliable supporter for Harry. He's just as manipulative as Mab and is setting Harry up for something very bad.
2. Harry is a descendant of Odin through Merlin.

I've seen one theory that the Gatekeeper is Odin. Since this wasn't crazy enough, I've added to that one that Merlin was also Odin, and he has maintained membership in the White Council throughout the centuries so he can guide/manipulate wizardkind.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2020, 10:00:21 PM »
Though I think Kumori is probably Elaine or Faith Astor, another possibility that's been raised is Victor Sells' daughter, if she inherited a talent. Going by the WOJ that Kumori's identity would cause Harry pain, 'she went dark because of missing a father figure ... because Harry killed him' would do it.
Jenny Sells.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2020, 07:09:56 PM »
Something more is going on with Harry's relationship with Odin.
1. Odin is not a reliable supporter for Harry. He's just as manipulative as Mab and is setting Harry up for something very bad.
2. Harry is a descendant of Odin through Merlin.

I've seen one theory that the Gatekeeper is Odin. Since this wasn't crazy enough, I've added to that one that Merlin was also Odin, and he has maintained membership in the White Council throughout the centuries so he can guide/manipulate wizardkind.

The bad thing is probably to take up his place, like Mab and Molly and maybe Lea and Molly.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2020, 04:33:15 PM »
Here are some I think about more often than I should:
1. The identity of the Demonreach prisoner.
2. Additional Starborn reveals, including other Starborn, and more information about their purpose, powers, and functions.
3. Possibly related to that, Elaine reveals of varying drama.
4. Time travel shenanigans (Hounds of Tindalos, which appear in Peace Talks, were conceptualized as entities who only begin to "notice" their prey after they've traveled in time; I think it's obvious that Justine sent them, considering where they were when they first attacked, but I don't think it's an accident).
5. I still don't know why Thomas went after Etri in Peace Talks, and he only tried to warn Harry about Justine's Infection. Did she threaten their baby? What was Thomas trying to accomplish? Was/is Etri Infected? Was Thomas? How is Thomas's assassination attempt (assuming it was genuine) related to the Justine reveal?
6. Chandler's fate. I think it'll be... unexpected, whatever happens (for example, Chandler being the Prisoner is frequently tossed around on here). I think it'll be something we've never thought about.
7. Hastings. I've got a ton of theories about what went down during Hastings/the Battle of Stamford Bridge, the Norman Invasion, and the Outer Gates. I think I'm probably going to be wrong about a big chunk of them, but they've brought up Hastings too often for it to never be revealed.
8. Some thought that Marcone would bear Amoracchius during the BAT. I think that's out of the cards after BG. Who, then, will carry the Sword of Love? Will that be Thomas's triumphant return? Murphy's? ...Maggie's?
9. Assuming Justine did not fake her pregnancy, I think we're in for some reveals about the nature of their child. What effect is there on gestation and growth if the mother is Infected the whole time? What happens when a White Court Vampire has a child with an Infected Mortal? I don't think there can be no effect.
10. Margaret LeFay's necklace. I've been saying it since Changes: that stone isn't just magic MapQuest (is that still around?) that tells you the fastest available route. It operates like a diary; it would not surprise me in the least to learn that there are at least some additional entries in it.
11. The Proven Guilty mysteries. Still no real answers, and I'm praying they surprise me.
There are, in all honesty, too many to count. Most books have at least one good reveal (at least for me).

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2020, 03:43:16 AM »
Simon Cowl also has the fact that by Jim's own admission a lot of names are puns/jokes.
Especially back then. He says he is less of a crazy/silly writer now than back then. Certainly would make sense. Although perhaps he left the identity of Cowl undefined with several possibilities and that's confusing us even more. He has changed his ideas a few times from what they would have been originally.

Something more is going on with Harry's relationship with Odin.
1. Odin is not a reliable supporter for Harry. He's just as manipulative as Mab and is setting Harry up for something very bad.
2. Harry is a descendant of Odin through Merlin.

I've seen one theory that the Gatekeeper is Odin. Since this wasn't crazy enough, I've added to that one that Merlin was also Odin, and he has maintained membership in the White Council throughout the centuries so he can guide/manipulate wizardkind.
I will add that in. I think it's highly likely that there are a few sucker punches around Odin. He isn't the "good guy" he appears to be. His hatred of the Forest People hints at that as well. And the whole theory about him setting up Harry as a weapon against the Red Court sticks in the mind. Not sure I am sold on the Gatekeeper thing though, but I will add it in. It's an interesting enough idea that he has been involved the whole time. Maybe even more so if you consider he and those like him (Drakul comes to mind actually, but also Erlking, Nicodemus and maybe even Kemmler) have held multiple identities over the centuries. It's even a bit Warhammer or Amber, both of which Jim is a fan of.

Here are some I think about more often than I should:
1. The identity of the Demonreach prisoner.
2. Additional Starborn reveals, including other Starborn, and more information about their purpose, powers, and functions.
3. Possibly related to that, Elaine reveals of varying drama.
4. Time travel shenanigans (Hounds of Tindalos, which appear in Peace Talks, were conceptualized as entities who only begin to "notice" their prey after they've traveled in time; I think it's obvious that Justine sent them, considering where they were when they first attacked, but I don't think it's an accident).
5. I still don't know why Thomas went after Etri in Peace Talks, and he only tried to warn Harry about Justine's Infection. Did she threaten their baby? What was Thomas trying to accomplish? Was/is Etri Infected? Was Thomas? How is Thomas's assassination attempt (assuming it was genuine) related to the Justine reveal?
6. Chandler's fate. I think it'll be... unexpected, whatever happens (for example, Chandler being the Prisoner is frequently tossed around on here). I think it'll be something we've never thought about.
7. Hastings. I've got a ton of theories about what went down during Hastings/the Battle of Stamford Bridge, the Norman Invasion, and the Outer Gates. I think I'm probably going to be wrong about a big chunk of them, but they've brought up Hastings too often for it to never be revealed.
8. Some thought that Marcone would bear Amoracchius during the BAT. I think that's out of the cards after BG. Who, then, will carry the Sword of Love? Will that be Thomas's triumphant return? Murphy's? ...Maggie's?
9. Assuming Justine did not fake her pregnancy, I think we're in for some reveals about the nature of their child. What effect is there on gestation and growth if the mother is Infected the whole time? What happens when a White Court Vampire has a child with an Infected Mortal? I don't think there can be no effect.
10. Margaret LeFay's necklace. I've been saying it since Changes: that stone isn't just magic MapQuest (is that still around?) that tells you the fastest available route. It operates like a diary; it would not surprise me in the least to learn that there are at least some additional entries in it.
11. The Proven Guilty mysteries. Still no real answers, and I'm praying they surprise me.
There are, in all honesty, too many to count. Most books have at least one good reveal (at least for me).
1. Certainly a big one. But maybe unexpected because Jim has deliberately misled us, which might be a bit annoying.
2. I am so interested in this. While many have been eliminated I suspect the ones that are still around are just like all the others we suspect/have met; badass and strong survivors. Definitely there will a be a few more surprises, perhaps not all human!
3. Yeah, I think everyone has narrowed that down as much as possible. I suppose I should include TT or Alternate Universe suspects though.
4. Which flows directly into this - sadly we have to wait another book to Mirror Mirror. Let's hope Jim gets Twelve Months out by June...I suspect we won't get proper answers on all this until the end but I think Mirror Mirror will give us an insight into what to expect.
5. My thinking is that Nemesis gave him an impossible mission. If he killed Etri he would have been slain out of hand and that would have distracted Dresden, if he didn't he would be trapped and still distract Dresden. And both would destabilize the Accords in time for Ethniu. All to keep Harry (and anyone else watching) as distracted as possible. The implication is that Justine/Nemesis used both it's control of Justine and the baby as leverage.
6. I suspect so, especially as Jim says he hasn't even decided it. Would be quite the fluke if anyone guessed it! In saying that, we have plenty of options (Outside, nowhere, random hell realm, Drakul's lair). Any guess is as likely as the next.
7. Love it if you could make a thread about Hastings and the events of 1066. It's a really interesting time even in our history, so I am sure it will be more so in the Dresden Universe.
8. Yeah, I think that Marcone wielding Amoracchius is about as likely as Harry and Nicodemus becoming best friends. As for the eventual wielder...Daniel, Thomas, Maggie are all good candidates. Could also be someone we haven't yet met. Almost certainly not Murphy, as per Gard she can't return until all who knew her have forgotten her or died. Seems unlikely to be anytime soon - but that doesn't mean we won't see her fighting at the Outer Gates or something.
9. I think it's obvious she didn't, at least to me. Much more control, much more power. As a writer it gives Jim much better options (more pain for Harry and Thomas if killed or damaged, more control it can wield, the chance of it becoming some nightmare creature as the combination of mortal/WCV/Outsider). Although as a side note - why wasn't Dresden more concerned about his future niece/nephew?
10. The Macguffin that Harry stopped using...yeah I hope Jim does more with it. I get he has been busy but surely he would have spent more time on it. Then again, he tends to ignore things for YEARS. Hopefully we well get to see it again in action, and hopefully there will be some more secrets embedded. I think you're right that she might have hidden further stuff in it.
11. Some might, some might not. Some have been guessed at quite well. Not sure why Jim hasn't answered some of them yet. But we will see.

Offline Dina

  • Has Collapsed Into a Singularity of Posts (a.k.a, "The Dina")
  • ***
  • Posts: 105333
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2020, 07:04:37 AM »
tag
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2020, 07:55:06 AM »
Quote
11. The Proven Guilty mysteries. Still no real answers, and I'm praying they surprise me.
There are, in all honesty, too many to count. Most books have at least one good reveal (at least for me).
There is only one that he has said will be revealed.  Who fixed LC. Book 20 before it became book 22.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4204
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2020, 08:23:14 AM »
Surprise - Murphy failed to use the favor that Lara owed her.  When Harry brought Murphy to the Raith manor to present Murphy's plan to rescue Thomas, I expected Murphy to use her favor in some fashion but that issue never came up.  So either Jim forgot that Lara owed Murphy a favor or in the next book there will be a will reading and we will learn that Murphy passed that favor on to Harry.  (Actually, both could have and will happen.  Jim forgot; someone will remind him and he'll fix it in the next book.)  I figure the owed favor is a debt and the creditor can pass ownership by sale, trade or bequest.

Not really a surprise, but an unresolved issue; Murphy had a sock full of diamonds that she never got to spend.  Who will find them and what will that mean for Harry?  At best, probably some uncomfortable questions.  Jim has stated that the diamonds Harry recovered would cause him nothing but trouble.

About Chandler, I don't believe Jim when he says he hasn't decided what happened to Chandler.  I think Jim knows exactly where that character went and has a specific plan for him.  Jim doesn't want to answer any questions which might give anything away and he also reduces speculation by the readers at the same time.  If Jim had fallen back on his usual, "I'm not going to tell you" line, that would only cause persistent readers to try to figure out the mystery.  By saying "I don't know (haven't decided) where Chandler went, it makes the issue seem unimportant.   
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24057
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2020, 12:00:56 PM »
Quote
About Chandler, I don't believe Jim when he says he hasn't decided what happened to Chandler.  I think Jim knows exactly where that character went and has a specific plan for him.  Jim doesn't want to answer any questions which might give anything away and he also reduces speculation by the readers at the same time.  If Jim had fallen back on his usual, "I'm not going to tell you" line, that would only cause persistent readers to try to figure out the mystery.  By saying "I don't know (haven't decided) where Chandler went, it makes the issue seem unimportant.   

I think Mirror Mirror will be a way for Harry to rescue Chandler, because that is where he was tossed.
He will have to chose which universe he wants to be in.  Since the White Council will now feel he cannot be trusted, he will become an ally of Harry, and Harry will finally find out just what it is they are so afraid of when it comes to him.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Surprises
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2020, 09:26:40 PM »
7. Love it if you could make a thread about Hastings and the events of 1066. It's a really interesting time even in our history, so I am sure it will be more so in the Dresden Universe.
I'm certain I wrote a lengthy post on the topic somewhere on here a year or two (or three?) ago, but I can't find it. Maybe it was lost in the migration from the old forum to this one?
I'm pretty sure it was long enough (somewhere around 1-2k words) that I wrote it in a Word document before trying to post it here. It's not at my fingertips, but I'll poke around on my computers to see if I saved it. Else I'll find an hour or two to rewrite it.

As I went through my post history looking for it, I found this. Looks like I verifiably WAGed Justine's Infection (it was a thought I'd had, but wasn't sure I'd "called" it on here). I'm only quoting it here 'cuz I found it thanks to this thread!
*Snipped because it was a really long post*
Those who may already be Infected:
1. Elaine.
2. I hate to say it, but Justine.
3. Christos.

I say Justine because of the shape of her character arc. She's gone through some radical changes throughout the series. Like, really, really big ones. In fact, when she reveals that she's regained her faculties to Harry (in White Night? I can't recall), she simply states that there's no time to explain how she's recovered, and it's never revisited. And now she's having Thomas's baby, which gives her leverage over Thomas, the White Court, and Harry. I think it's possible that, during her period of disability, she was Infected, and Nemesis managed to not only help her recover faster, but increase her influence in the White Court. Can you think of another mortal who worked so closely with anyone in the upper echelons of the White Court? Certainly not for as long as she has. Lara defends her with her life, and not just because Justine is important to Thomas.

That's my WAG about it, anyway.