Author Topic: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT  (Read 19906 times)

Offline Dina

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2020, 07:37:52 PM »
I still think the "killing humans" is BS. It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense. It shouldn't be a reason to expulsion, or death sentence, or anything.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2020, 07:47:17 PM »
I still think the "killing humans" is BS. It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense. It shouldn't be a reason to expulsion, or death sentence, or anything.
So was Chichen Itza but the blackstaff only got away with killing all those mercenaries because of his staff. The accusation was flimsy because the status of turtlenecks.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2020, 08:32:42 PM »
I know I and others here have said it before, but it bears repeating, it makes little sense for the Council to oust Harry, largely on evidence that he violated the First Law, and not execute him for that violation.

It's an equivocal response. It telegraphs weakness and fear. They're unwilling to attack Harry. A single wizard. Sure, he has a fearsome reputation, but so do a lot of members. Kincaid seemed scared of Eb. The Merlin, the Gatekeeper, LtW are all extremely impressive in combat. They were set on killing Morgan rather than appear weak. Either the Council is in serious trouble, or something else is at play.
The catch there is that being WK gives him more protection than he thinks.

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Does Harry get paid for being the Winter Knight or is that not a thing?

Are you kidding? No no he can go ask for things. Harry already did get paid for being the Winter Knight by being given a bunch of power. The Sidhe are hyper-focused on obligation and keeping the sheets balanced, especially Winter. In Summer you can get a little bit more emotional and do some nice things and not hold anyone accountable for it but in Winter everyone accounts for everything. So sure they could pay Harry but he'd have to go live on - and be working shifts and doing things on their time and so on. As it is Mab's just made a deal "When I need you, you show up." He's kind of a consultant now and he's been paid in power. Plus he reaps a bunch of side indirect benefits of being Mab's strong guy; such as the White Council not just obliterating him. "That would be declaring a war, can't really do that, damn it, we should have killed this guy when we had the chance" that's what a lot of people on the White Council are thinking, even the people who kind of like him, "you know what, maybe we should have killed this guy when we had a chance", they've seen too many bad wizards come along. Everybody who is worried about Harry is looking at him and thinking "that's Kemmler again and it's just a matter of time before he starts digging into bad things, you saw what he did with the dinosaur" so. But yeah, they're not gonna pay him that would be too easy for Harry. Harry's the Charlie Brown of urban fantasy, he gets to open his treat bag and go "I got a rock".
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2020, 10:59:46 PM »
It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense.
The First Law is "don't kill mortals with magic," not "don't murder mortals with magic." Nothing in WoJ, the books, or short stories indicate that "not murder" killings are exempted from the Laws of Magic, the Council's or the universe's version. If I was writing the books, that's how it would work. But I'm not.

The catch there is that being WK gives him more protection than he thinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-5X2wf8JM

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How much of a pause would the White Council take if Harry were to start flagrantly breaking the laws and saying “Come at me bro” while Winter Knight? Would his connection to Mab provide much protection?
They wouldn’t pause long at /all/ in that case. And Mab would look at him and say “you started this: finish it.”

While it appears that your more recent WoJ and this one conflict, I can read them as not conflicting. The "White Council not just obliterating him" (emphasis added) isn't the same as them executing him for "flagrantly breaking the laws and saying 'Come at me bro.'” They're is a big difference between executing someone for breaking a well established law with the death penalty being the well established sentence than just assassinating/murdering someone. Most despotic regimes and tyrannical kings usually have some trumped up charges when they just want someone dead.

I still think it telegraphs weakness. Especially to those who aren't thinking like the 2016 WoJ, but are thinking Harry was flagrantly violating the Laws while thumbing his nose at the Council, which he basically did when Ramirez confronted him in the graveyard.

I think these two WoJ, read together and not as contradictions, really lend credence to the "killing Turtlenecks is a First Law violation is bs" camp.

Also this to illustrate how Jim lies with like a Sidhe/changes his mind.
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Kansas City release party Q&A [circa 2011]
You’ve mentioned several times that marriages are used to seal pacts and alliances, will Harry be forced into a marriage, and will it be with Lara [Raith]?
What makes you think that Harry hasn’t been forced into a marriage already?  I mean, the whole thing with Mab, come on. Read more book. Read the most recent one, and see if that doesn’t give you more answers. Certainly, he’s in it deep with Mab at the moment, because there’ll be none of this, “He’s going to get out of this because he was technically dead”—no, it’s too easy.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2020, 11:27:14 PM »
Of course it's BS, in the book Harry knows it and so does Carlos.  It high political theater, or at least what passes for it in Jim's mind.  It's been telegraphed since Summer Knight and was reinforced in Dead Beat.  It was only a question of when. Carlos knew of the events because a rep is useful to Marcone only when things that build him up are widely known.  It would have been part of taking down Nic.

Jim has shown that he will throw canon under the bus if it suits him.

Offline Dina

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2020, 11:58:14 PM »
The First Law is "don't kill mortals with magic," not "don't murder mortals with magic." Nothing in WoJ, the books, or short stories indicate that "not murder" killings are exempted from the Laws of Magic, the Council's or the universe's version. If I was writing the books, that's how it would work. But I'm not.

Harry killed Justin (and, as far as the WC knows) Elaine with magic and they did not kill him because they could not prove it was not in self defense. So, Damocles and all that, but self defense is a passable excuse. Also, about the death sentence, a wizard has no right to speak in his defense? Because Harry said he was too busy to go to speak with the WC while he was working the PT, but that was about his status as member of the council. It he was going to be accused of, basically, being a warlock, he should have been able to defend himself, right?

Gosh, I really hope that decision bites the Council in the arse.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2020, 04:42:33 AM »
Harry killed Justin (and, as far as the WC knows) Elaine with magic and they did not kill him because they could not prove it was not in self defense. So, Damocles and all that, but self defense is a passable excuse. Also, about the death sentence, a wizard has no right to speak in his defense? Because Harry said he was too busy to go to speak with the WC while he was working the PT, but that was about his status as member of the council. It he was going to be accused of, basically, being a warlock, he should have been able to defend himself, right?
The defendant has no rights at all. In the show trial against Morgan letting him speak was an exception, not the rule. Nobody let Molly speak. You only get a defense if some wizard with enough cloud wants to defend you. If he gets the opportunity and the warlock is not just beheaded in your absence

These are not really trials in any modern sense. Just a group of people deciding whether you are too dangerous too live.

And unless the case is too clear to ignore it can be all subject to politics. Harry was spared not because he was innocent, several wizards just wanted too kill him, but because the blackstaf had enough cloud to prevent it. And again Harry did not speak either. He could not even see who his accusers were.

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Gosh, I really hope that decision bites the Council in the arse.
Of course. They will need winter and probably Harry in the next apocalypse. But most of them are pretty ignorant as the gatekeeper said.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2020, 05:12:14 PM »
The Wizards judicial proceedings are modeled after Star Chambers and the Wardens after Death Squads. Why Jim chose these particular models escapes me.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2020, 05:21:45 PM »
The White Council doesn't really have trials. What they have are formal meetings that allow them a salve to the collective conscience of the non-Senior members and for the Senior Council to make political points and on rare occasions find new talent.

 Execute a warlock? Expel an outlaw? That's on the seniors, nothing to do with me, sad about those lost kids though.

 The Seniors get to show that they have the power and authority to run things. They also get to say, " Hey, we've found a rare kid with talent, who's not a total loss. Anybody want to try to save them and add to the WC's power It's ok if you don't cuz we have this insane rule where if they go bad before you finish teaching them you die. See how compassionate and merciful we can be.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2020, 08:13:49 PM »
Harry killed Justin (and, as far as the WC knows) Elaine with magic and they did not kill him because they could not prove it was not in self defense.
Self defense isn't a justification. Self defense against black magic is. There's a huge difference. The Turtlenecks were using firearms, not magic.

... we have this insane rule where if they go bad before you finish teaching them you die.
Is that a rule? It happened that one time with Harry. It doesn't appear to be a condition on Eb. The condition placed on Eb was that he would have to execute Harry if Harry stepped out of line. Eb ignored this condition.

The White Council's concept of what a trial consisted of might have come from the Roman Empire. I don't know what that looked like. In the Republic, it looked close enough to what we're familiar with: juries, two sides arguing, etc. After the Republic, the juries went away. I'm not sure about the rest.

Offline Dina

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2020, 07:10:28 PM »
I just wanted to let a WoJ here, it's from a pre PT interview (perhaps even before SG, I am not sure). It's about the Council reaction to Harry´s upgrades.

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28:56 Going back to that question about Molly and the Doom of Damocles, what was the White Council's reaction when they found out that Harry, the black sheep, and then his apprentice are now like the two most powerful people in the Winter Court?

And not only that, he's also in charge of the damned island full of monsters *said while pointing down*, he's also taken over monster island what do you think their reaction is? You look at Harry from the exterior, oh my gosh he's the new dark lord, that's the new Voldemort, he is on the way. And not only that but he's secured his position with Mab now so you can't cross him without crossing Mab as well, not only that but his apprentice is even more highly placed than that so he's trained the next person up from him in the chain of command over in Winter, not only that but he's obviously got some kind of relationship with the new Summer Lady and also the current Summer Knight, he's forming this group of people who share information over this internet that wizards can't access, so he's got this spy network forming, are you kidding, he's the most dangerous man on the planet.

So they're crapping their pants.

Yeah exactly. It's not as much that as "yeah okay we're going to have to bump him up as a threat, bump him up again, bump him up a-it doesn't go any higher? Okay we're going to have to start taking action on this one" so.

Is he still part of the White Council?

Technically. Technically because the White Council subscribes to the "keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer" theory of things. And Harry doesn't really realise any of that because he's just stumbling along through his life doing stuff, but anybody who's looking at it from the outside are you kidding they've got to be flipping out right now.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2020, 08:51:39 PM »
I just wanted to let a WoJ here, it's from a pre PT interview (perhaps even before SG, I am not sure). It's about the Council reaction to Harry´s upgrades.

Yeah, that just about sums it up, and instead of trying to working with him or reaching out to him, they chose to alienate him instead.  Not wise, because they will need him before the end.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2020, 10:11:08 PM »
Yeah, that just about sums it up, and instead of trying to working with him or reaching out to him, they chose to alienate him instead.  Not wise, because they will need him before the end.
Yes they basically threw away their influence on him and a useful spy as well. 
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2020, 10:37:01 PM »
This seems like a rather minor part of a conversation Carlos had with Harry, at Marcone's Castle before Ehniu showed up.

Carlos - "How's Karrin doing?"
Harry - "Like always, but slower and grouchier."
Carlos - "I heard what she did.  Went hand to hand with Nicodemus Archleone and survived."

How did Carlos or anyone from the White Council know about this?  Was someone sitting under a veil watching the whole thing play out?  That seems highly unlikely.  I don't think Rashid saw it through some time travel message shenanigan's.  If he had it's unlikely he would have told anybody else unless he believed it was necessary to do so.

I'm going to eliminate Nicodemus and the Genoskwa from the list of people who would have spilled the story.  One's on the run and the other would rather kill a human than talk to one.  That leaves Harry, Murphy, Michael and Waldo Butters.  Charity was in the safe room with the children.

Murphy was pretending that her injuries occurred in a traffic accident and Harry would have backed her up on this.  That leaves Michael and Waldo and Michael was in the game a long time before that day.  Long enough to know there are some things you don't share around the campfire. 

I think Waldo Butters shared the story of Murphy going up against Nicodemus with some of the people on the paranet.  He wouldn't have done it out of maliciousness, just a lack of understanding that some things need to be kept under wraps.  Unless, it was Mr. Sunshine and that seems really, really unlikely.  Do you have a different solution? 

A couple of other questions come to mind.  Shouldn't Harry have been surprised by Carlos' question?  If Ramirez knows about Murphy going against Nicodemus, how much more does he; and the White Council, know about the break in of Marcone's vault?  For that matter, what about the rest of the major players in the supernatural world.  For example, shouldn't Lara know the same facts?  However, even though Carlos knew that Nicodemus had been set up, he gave Marcone all the credit for doing so, which was incorrect.  Marcone and Hades provided the bait.  Mab was the real brains behind the plan and Harry made it happen.  Do you think Carlos realized that Harry was involved, because it didn't seem like he did to me?  If you want to reread this passage, it's in chapter 25, page 238.   

To be honest, I believe Jim was getting so rushed with his last two (one) novel(s) that he didn't apply the polish we are used to. Several times I suspect he just wanted to put the idea on paper but didn't really go through the whole process of working out how that information should come out naturally, and we as readers are highly sensitive to that. It's hard as an author to get that right as it is but when under pressure I am not surprised that things blow out a bit.

Take Harry's conversation with Bob early on in BG about Reality starting to break. The scene is almost word for word something out of one of Jim's interviews or Q&As - Harry is the questioner and Bob is Jim. Why would Harry say to Bob (in-universe) "Ferrovax the Dragon" when Bob would already know who he meant by saying Ferrovax and Bob probably knows more than Harry about what Ferro really is? And why would Harry bring up a conversation from 20 years ago with a being who wasn't even present for it (as though they were) to ask about this? It was almost as if Jim wanted remind not just the audience but also himself of what happened in Grave Peril when Harry and Ferro first meet.

The conversation would have made more sense (in my opinion) if it read more like:
"Bob, when I first met Ferrovax he told me his true form would crack the Earth - did he mean Reality?"
"Yes, Harry you moron. Did you really think he meant physically crack the planet's crust with his weight? It only took you 20 years to figure that out!"

Or something like that. Instead it came off as clunky, ham-handed exposition. It wasn't the usual standard of Jim's writing at all.

Another example is Dresden's mysteriously deep and practical knowledge of how the Arma Christi (Weapons of Christ - the artefacts he retrieved from Hades' vault) seem to work. How on earth did he know how the plaque worked? It's not like that knowledge is just everyday information (there is no lore that suggests it in our world either). If it is common knowledge in Harry's universe (which would be extremely bizarre) then shouldn't more people know? If it is in fact the rare knowledge that it most likely IS (and should be), how does Harry come to possess it? It's not like Harry could just test this stuff either. It's almost like a scene was missing where Harry needed to seek out information on the artefacts of the Redeemer. Same with the Spear of Destiny? How does Harry know it's a spear to everything (I assume that means nothing can stop it)? And what a crude use of it too. A mundane stabbing tool. Surely the Spear of Destiny (supposedly a weapon that makes the holder invincible) can be used better than for a mere tactical contest? We are talking a thing connected to the fundamental and supreme power in the universe. And while we can put it down to Harry being a brute yadda yadda - we know now that Harry hasn't been the brutish "engineer" that Jim wanted him to appear as for a long time. We have seen that he is intelligent, crafty, ruthless, diplomatic (at times) and thoughtful. Harry's should know more about his weapons, that doesn't bother me. But how he came into that knowledge does. It almost appears to just pop into his head. Who knows, maybe it's another type of intellectus (clever tool for Jim to use too).

The Wizards judicial proceedings are modeled after Star Chambers and the Wardens after Death Squads. Why Jim chose these particular models escapes me.
Jim has always made a bit of a point through out the series of the dangers of large organisations that impose rules on others. I suspect he himself was channelling his own feeling about bureaucracy (particularly in relation to his rather harsh treatment by the university administration - not the professors - something he mentioned in an interview). It's somewhat thematic too for such an old organisation, so it works in-universe too. Currently he has Harry seceding from the White Council under the guise of this is for the best etc. Maybe it is, time will tell. But it's certainly heading towards the destruction of the White Council and the rules-based order they have helped keep. There may come a time where Harry might regret this. Perhaps he is even being nudged to do this. These days Harry sounds a lot like Cowl when he talks to and about the White Council - but with less haughtiness and style.

I still think the "killing humans" is BS. It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense. It shouldn't be a reason to expulsion, or death sentence, or anything.
 
You also have to consider Harry's expulsion was not really about whether he broke the rules, but because people wanted him out of the Council. For varying reasons. Some on the Council think he is a legitimate danger (and clearly there is a big reveal coming about Harry's dark origins and possible future). Some want him isolated from his former allies so he will be easier to manipulate. Some just want him removed so he can be killed easier. It's politics after all.

Offline Dina

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2020, 10:45:01 PM »
About the knowledge of the weapons, I suspected he has asked Alfred but I wondered why he never said it explicitly in his inner monologue "According to Alfred, the Spear is a spear for everything."

As a side note, I repeat what I already said, I am worried because it has never been stated that the Spear is back in the Demonreach armory. I don't know if it was lazy writing or we are facing another "Where is your blasting rod, Harry?"
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)