The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
Dina:
I've meant trusting Harry.
forumghost:
Right yeah.
Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.
Like C'mon:
Carlos: "Are you fucking a wampire?"
Harry: "How Dare you?" *Start's preparing for a fight*
Also Harry: *Is seen fucking her by several people not long after*
Harry: *Attacks Carlos and runs off right before the Fomor show up, but won't tell anyone where he went or why*
Also Harry: "WAAAHHHHH! Nobody trusts me!"
Dina:
I agree about the details but I don't see Ramirez trying to trust Harry. Only "saying" that.
KurtinStGeorge:
quote author=forumghost link=topic=53912.msg2338354#msg2338354 date=1604107154]
Right yeah.
Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.
Like C'mon:
Carlos: "Are you fucking a wampire?"
Harry: "How Dare you?" *Start's preparing for a fight*
Also Harry: *Is seen fucking her by several people not long after*
Harry: *Attacks Carlos and runs off right before the Fomor show up, but won't tell anyone where he went or why*
Also Harry: "WAAAHHHHH! Nobody trusts me!"
[/quote]
--- Quote from: Dina on October 31, 2020, 01:21:03 AM ---I agree about the details but I don't see Ramirez trying to trust Harry. Only "saying" that.
--- End quote ---
I agree with Dina here. The way I read it Carlos was really saying, "We know you're under the Raith's power, let us help you."
From Warden Ramirez perspective this makes some sense. If the Wardens file reports or if Captain Luccio spoke to Carlos about the last time she went to Chicago, he could have learned that Luccio saw Harry coming out of a known White Court building (Club Zero) and accepted a ride from Thomas Raith. When Carlos worked with Harry in White Night, Harry had a lot of information on the internal political workings of White Court; probably much more information than anyone else on the White Council. If the comic book story War Cry is cannon; and I have no idea if the comic book stories are, Thomas helped Harry, Carlos, Wild Bill and Yoshino when they were fighting the Red Court in that story. And, it didn't help that when Carlos came up to Harry on the beach that Thomas was with him. Finally, after what Molly did to him, Carlos had to be afraid of what being associated with Winter was doing or had done to Harry.
When Harry was stopped leaving the Raith manor, it was clear that Carlos and the rest of the Wardens; except perhaps Chandler, assumed the worst about Harry. Frankly, Harry shouldn't have been surprised if he thought about it for a while. Having said all that, I'm not saying Carlos Ramirez was completely in the right. Earlier that morning on the beach, when Thomas offered to leave, Carlos should have thanked him and then brought up his concerns to Harry in private. Instead he went straight into total distrust mode by talking about the peace talks while planting the tracking spell. In fact, he planted the tracking spell before he started talking about the Fomor and the peace talks.
In BG, when Carlos talked to Harry when he was entering Marcone's castle, he didn't bring up the illusion that people would have taking about, he just asked where Harry had been. Harry did say that he had to "Had to go grab some tools," but he could have elaborated a little more without giving much away." Something as simple as, "I was out on the street and saw Ethniu roll up, so I knew I had to get some heavier than usual tools to work with." However, Harry was in a somewhat difficult position. He didn't want to even think about the Athame he was carrying and he believes there is another Black Council member working within the White Council. Beyond Ebenezer, he doesn't know who he can trust on the Council and his relationship with Eb at that time was a complete mess.
Finally, as I stated in another post, when Harry is telling Carlos what a real threat is, he was speaking hypothetically. Carlos probably took it as a genuine threat, especially the part about Molly taking issue with the Council going after Harry. Carlos probably saw that as a personal threat made by Harry expressly aimed at himself.
I don't think that what transpired between Harry and Carlos is all about who was right and who was wrong. It's more about a lack of communication because of Harry's general isolation, miscommunication, the general attitude of most wizards to jealously hold on to secrets combined with legitimate concerns on both sides which were exaggerated by the issues I mentioned before that.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.
--- End quote ---
Did he though? You don't secretly put a tracking device on someone you trust. It is like wearing a wire and going to have a friendly chat with a "friend," and all the while you are there to entrap or catch them saying something incriminating. Once Harry realized that, any chance for trust and actually talking to Carlos went out the window.
--- Quote ---"Wow," I said in a level tone. "Mistrusting me right from the get-go, huh?"
--- End quote ---
The thing is that dot was put on Harry before Thomas tried to kill anyone, and at the same time Carlos was asking Harry to be part of his security team. Apparently he was ordered by someone to do it, and most likely the faction of the Senior Council who want to get rid of Harry. And given his recent experience with Molly, Carlos went along..
--- Quote ---He shrugged. "I was pretty clear about my intentions," he said. "If you don't want others to think you're shady, man, maybe you shouldn't be doing shady things at shady times with shady people."
--- End quote ---
Huh? WTF? No, Carlos at the beach did not come off as someone who was suspicious of Harry, or so much so he'd sneak a tracking dot on him. As far as Thomas goes, Carlos knows him actually fought along side of him in White Night. Since that was before any assassination attempts, he knew at the very least Harry and him were friends. Harry isn't running with more "shady" people than he was before, unless you call the Alphas shady, two Holy Knights and a retired Holy Knight, and a former cop shady. No, someone got to Carlos, that and what happened with Molly really screwed him up and someone was able to turn him against Harry.
--- Quote ---I agree with Dina here. The way I read it Carlos was really saying, "We know you're under the Raith's power, let us help you."
--- End quote ---
The thing is, I doubt that they really wanted to help him.. They wanted evidence to get rid of him..
What says this isn't exactly on the up and up is the silent warning Harry got from Chandler.
--- Quote ---Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
--- End quote ---
Which considering Chandler's closeness to Luccio, may have been a warning from her. It also goes along with what Eb was trying to warn Harry about after they returned to the apartment and had pancakes. So serious, that Eb was in a total panic about it, I doubt even if Harry had tried to glad hand some of the members it would have done any good. Big problem, Eb never explained who it was or what exactly they were after except the usual. But the long and the short, after realizing that Carlos had put that dot on him, there was no way he could trust him with anything.
--- Quote ---I don't think that what transpired between Harry and Carlos is all about who was right and who was wrong. It's more about a lack of communication because of Harry's general isolation, miscommunication, the general attitude of most wizards to jealously hold on to secrets combined with legitimate concerns on both sides which were exaggerated by the issues I mentioned before that.
--- End quote ---
No, not in this case. Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time. Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.." When he says, "talk to me.." He is saying, "confess.."
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