The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.
--- Quote ---The big one is, at the command of TWG, creating an earthly prison to hold Azazel until the end of days. That fits pretty well with Demonreach.
--- End quote ---
If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 07, 2020, 01:54:59 AM ---The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.
--- End quote ---
Mab calls Uriel the Watchman, not watcher. And the Book of Enoch, which is what talks about the Watcher angels, also specially refers to Raphael and other non-Fallen angels as watchers. So it would seem that Raphael was also, at minimum, involved with the Watchers. Most angels involved with earth probably are.
--- Quote ---If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)
--- End quote ---
Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).
It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).
It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.
--- End quote ---
Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 07, 2020, 02:18:12 AM ---Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse. It's either from the Book of Enoch or the Book of Tobit. Both reference Raphael binding a demon/angel in the desert. Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics. I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic. Grigori from Enoch have also become common in the urban fantasy genre, so he could be familiar with both stories to some degree prior to research for the books.
As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons. We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse.
--- End quote ---
Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?
--- Quote ---Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics.
--- End quote ---
Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.
--- Quote ---As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons. We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.
--- End quote ---
Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.
--- Quote ---I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic.
--- End quote ---
I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD
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