The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---I do not think so. Uriel was far too pleased when she got the southbound train. I do not think only good people have souls because what point would there be in going south?
Corpstaker did not loose who she was. That horrible person was corpstaker.
--- End quote ---
Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.
--- Quote ---Details. The important part is the belief that the soul exists after the body is gone. There are good reasons to believe that the original jewish belief before christianity did not belief that and believed in the litteral ressurection of the dead to live here on earth.
--- End quote ---
Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)
But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.
Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.
--- Quote ---It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
--- End quote ---
Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.
--- Quote ---Unless Mab had given the body to another shade, do not waste it. She could have asked a good price for it and Bonea could get something out of it as well.
It would not be Harry but his body would be very much alive.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul, result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.
Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 12, 2020, 02:08:31 PM ---Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.
Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)
But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.
--- End quote ---
His soul was somewhere else, that was mentioned several times all over the place by reliable sources. Bonea was keeping the body alive, it functioned as her body really.
You can discuss the status of an unborn child but I do not think this is the right forum :-)
--- Quote ---Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.
--- End quote ---
No reference to that in the books. I am sure that if Corpstaker had taken over Harry's body and Mab and Demonreach had done nothing Harry would have been dead. Butters needed a lot of help to get back to his body even when corpstaker was gone. No handy anchor.
--- Quote ---Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.
--- End quote ---
Just like Harry she had her soul/spirit combination, her shade. That is what Lea meant. Corpstaker was just the same sort of being as Harry.
She just left her body with her complete non material self and occupied another one. No mystery about that.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul,
--- End quote ---
A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.
There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.
--- Quote ---result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.
--- End quote ---
I never said non human. Just a shade. A human shade.
Actually Lea taught Harry (and Molly) more or less how to do it when they both fought the servitors. I think Harry can do what corps taker did he just does not want to. You must be somewhat desperate too leave your own body and occupy another one but old age might drive someone to it.
But Harry is a necromancer too. These tricks are not in fashion anymore because the white council does not like them.
As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.
The next step is not caring too much about whose body it really was. Corps taker routine might not be that well spread it is illustrative about the relation between body and soul in the dresdenverse.
--- Quote ---Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.
--- End quote ---
Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.
Dina:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 12, 2020, 01:40:48 PM ---It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 12, 2020, 01:40:48 PM ---It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it.
--- End quote ---
The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)
--- Quote ---It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
--- End quote ---
Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.
You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)
--- End quote ---
Mab states that if Dresden soul would not return, she would lost a knight and Demonreach its guardian. So I doubt she would keep Dresden's body alive as handy empty soul for some Corpsetaker 2.0. Especially as her Winter Knight deal was with Dresden as a human being, not just mortal shell.
But she knew his soul is running around in spirit-body.
--- Quote ---Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.
You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.
--- End quote ---
Seems to be. But I'd assume if body is recoverable - soul should stay around. With Dresden being wizard and necromancer to big, that was bit different, but even then Mab was angry at Uriel for letting Dresden roam around so... it seems it was somehow faciliated by Archangel.
--- Quote ---A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.
There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.
--- End quote ---
Is there a clear distinction? I mean terms ghost, shade, spirit seems to be used quite wantonly in TDF series, which is tbh expected considering it's one of murkiest elements of reality, even many supernaturals know little about. I'd have to re-read to check if it's used in consistent fashion really.
--- Quote ---Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.
--- End quote ---
I'm not so sure it's just a body. Body holds tremendous power. Blood matters. Bloodlines matters.
Luccio was forcibly forced to new body and it dimnished her willpower and control over magic despite her immaterial self staying the same.
IIRC Dresden has several flashes from his body during Ghost Story - which means he still is somehow connected to it.
Which can be explained both from spirit and soul sides of shade - I mean ghosts of the dead, soulless memories often dwelled around bodies, around remains - there was real power there- that's how Dresden fried Bianca after all.
--- Quote ---As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.
--- End quote ---
Dunno. Definitely he wanted to show soul is way way more important.
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