I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[The_Sibelis]

The point is there does not always have to be an invitation, free will or not. Sometimes someone is just grabbed and infected. I do not see why magic is needed either. Corpstaker could grab anyone and take over.

Sure an invitation would make it easier but that is all.

corpse taker used magic though... And she had free will to violate others free will. Though I'm supposing above that walkers also possess some measure of free will to act.

[Mira]

corpse taker used magic though... And she had free will to violate others free will. Though I'm supposing above that walkers also possess some measure of free will to act.

Who says the Outsiders/Nemesis need magic to get into someone's head?  Maybe that is what the danger is all about, creatures that really don't give a damn about free will.

[The_Sibelis]

Who says the Outsiders/Nemesis need magic to get into someone's head?  Maybe that is what the danger is all about, creatures that really don't give a damn about free will.

nobody did.... Well, technically Griff did. They were talking about magic being used as the conduit. Not as the active effect . I merely pointed out magic is present in the situations where it has happened.
Them being creatures who don't give a damn about free will is what I said actually..
Also, this is why warlocks and other black magic users mirror them imo, they find a common denominator in not caring about violating the free will of others, also, magic is present.

[Griffyn612]

@Griffyn612: How do you fit Harry's black magic corruption into your theory of black magic being an opening to infection? Was his corruption simply an opening that couldn't be used? I once thought that all black magic corruption could be nemfection, but I'm not sure that's possible anymore.

In computers, ports can be bidirectional, inbound, outbound, or closed.  If there is a port that allows Beside to look in, another port for him to whisper in, and another for him to take remote control, then for Starborn, those ports might work differently than other mortals.

For Justine, those ports might be bidirectional. For Harry, they might be outbound only, meaning he can send his message/power out at Outsiders, but they can't send it in to him.  He's got a built-in firewall/antivirus that has his system protected.

As a tentative hypothesis this has merit.  But Justine isn't a magic user.  What's her path to infection?

We're not sure when she infected, much less how. But my guess is that they used a vector.

My personal guess is that she was exposed to infection on that Fomor raid we heard about in Even Hand.  Maybe it was before that, but the text in Cold Days suggests otherwise, at least to me.

My guess is someone used something on her, like the Athame or hex belt, which (like a usb connected directly to a machine) installed Beside's protocols directly, without consent.

[Mira]

My personal guess is that she was exposed to infection on that Fomor raid we heard about in Even Hand.  Maybe it was before that, but the text in Cold Days suggests otherwise, at least to me.

My thinking is that it was before, Grave Peril while she was held captive by Bianca.  Then like a encysted parasite or an anthrax spore,it slept in her brain, first metagating her mental health symptoms that were attributed to controlled feeding by Thomas. Nothing was noticed because it as so gradual, until it was in the perfect position to not only undermine the White Court, but the whole of the Accords.

[Arjan]

In computers, ports can be bidirectional, inbound, outbound, or closed.  If there is a port that allows Beside to look in, another port for him to whisper in, and another for him to take remote control, then for Starborn, those ports might work differently than other mortals.

And some people just unscrew the box and replace the hard drive.

[The_Sibelis]

In keeping with the computer analogy, Starborn would be a combination of fire wall+antivirus then?
... This actually makes me think of Nemesis as something like the agents from the matrix, it can jump in and out of any hardware connected to it's primary system... Or would that be more like agent smith, who over writes the program already there with its own?

[Eleyctra]

It doesn't seem that complicated when you think in computer terms.

• The Outer Gates are a Firewall that block almost all traffic from the Outside.
• Free Will Summoning is a Firewall Port that's open to the Outside that allows traffic in.
• Black Magic Use is something that opens local Ports on the user, which Outsiders can use to access the system.
• HWWBeside is a Hacker who's gotten inside the firewall and can use Black Magic Ports to open more Ports on local systems, including Remote Access Protocol.
• The Athame is a USB drive with HWWBeside's malware that will open Ports without Black Magic Use initiating the intrusion.
• HWWBeside is likely hosted on a system inside the Network (Reality), which is his foothold.
• HWWBeside might be able to pass from host to host if the right ports are open.
• The question is if HWWBeside is limited to one system at a time, or if he can be on several.
• The possession of Lea shown in PG implies that HWWBeside was trapped inside Lea at the time, but managed to escape her system and moved to another.
• This could mean HWWBeside is limited to actively possessing only one host at a time, but it may be that he can be on several (my guess would be three) and he didn't like having one of his install instances/licenses tied up on a quarantined system.

This makes sense to me and clarifies some things. The last one though leans towards your second observation - since HWWBs has had an active role in the background for much longer. So it being locked up in Lea was more like Mab didn't want her second infected and was 'burning' the infection out. And HWWBs didn't like being quarantined (as you say), but slipped out and got Maeve.

[Griffyn612]

My thinking is that it was before, Grave Peril while she was held captive by Bianca.  Then like a encysted parasite or an anthrax spore,it slept in her brain, first metagating her mental health symptoms that were attributed to controlled feeding by Thomas. Nothing was noticed because it as so gradual, until it was in the perfect position to not only undermine the White Court, but the whole of the Accords.

We might find out eventually, but it seems like an odd choice to me.  Justine was a young girl dating the outcast son of the White Court King.  Lord Raith was clearly willing to use Outsiders, as he trained Madge to summon Behind.  I don't see the value in infecting Justine at that time.

As the book said, her getting infected when Justine got close to the leader of the White Court makes more sense to me.

And some people just unscrew the box and replace the hard drive.

That analogy would have to go with... Amanda Beckitt.

In keeping with the computer analogy, Starborn would be a combination of fire wall+antivirus then?
... This actually makes me think of Nemesis as something like the agents from the matrix, it can jump in and out of any hardware connected to it's primary system... Or would that be more like agent smith, who over writes the program already there with its own?

Beside would be a lot like Agent Smith, but I doubt Beside is as powerful as Smith.  Maybe Smith from the first movie, where he's limited to one host.  The mass host thing just seems wrong to me.

But yeah, a Starborn has built in protection against the Outsiders, which would be like having protection from his ports being manipulated.  His ability to control them or have power over them, which I think was mentioned by Lash, would be that his outbound ports are open to send power at them, and likewise they can't close their own inbound ports against him.

This makes sense to me and clarifies some things. The last one though leans towards your second observation - since HWWBs has had an active role in the background for much longer. So it being locked up in Lea was more like Mab didn't want her second infected and was 'burning' the infection out. And HWWBs didn't like being quarantined (as you say), but slipped out and got Maeve.

Yeah, I think Mab would have preferred Beside be trapped, but not in Lea. She's too important.

It does make me wonder if Mab's threat to get vengeance on everyone involved would include Harry, if his attack on the Winter Spring played a role in Beside escaping and infecting Maeve.

[Mira]

We might find out eventually, but it seems like an odd choice to me.  Justine was a young girl dating the outcast son of the White Court King.  Lord Raith was clearly willing to use Outsiders, as he trained Madge to summon Behind.  I don't see the value in infecting Justine at that time.

Long term planning, if you want to plant an effective mole in a tight and dangerous organization. You do it slowly with someone nonthreatening, gain trust, love and feeding the son of the head of the House is perfect positioning.  It took years to achieve that, in the end no one suspected her,not Lara, no one.  It wasn't until he had ten minutes to think did Harry, tired as he was, figured it out.  If he hadn't Nemesis would have successfully penetrated the defenses of Demonreach.  Long term planning.

[forumghost]

Long term planning, if you want to plant an effective mole in a tight and dangerous organization. You do it slowly with someone nonthreatening, gain trust, love and feeding the son of the head of the House is perfect positioning.  It took years to achieve that, in the end no one suspected her,not Lara, no one.  It wasn't until he had ten minutes to think did Harry, tired as he was, figured it out.  If he hadn't Nemesis would have successfully penetrated the defenses of Demonreach.  Long term planning.

Except that that requires Nemesis somehow know both that Lara was going to supplant her father, AND that Thomas would somehow force himself to stop feeding from Justine despite it being impossible, (giving her the protection that makes her useful to Lara) years in advance.

Like, if the Walkers were that prescient, Harry wouldn't keep tripping them up.

[Dina]

What I don't understand is, is Justine going to be weakened by the hunger? (I mean, while the baby is inside Justine) or not? Perhaps the infection gave her resistance to hunger.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Hard to say. Nemesis infection seems to change nature of beings though.

[Griffyn612]

What I don't understand is, is Justine going to be weakened by the hunger? (I mean, while the baby is inside Justine) or not? Perhaps the infection gave her resistance to hunger.

Was it said somewhere that most mortal women don't survive the birthing, or that it's hard for them?  I mean, the demon doesn't kick in until the Wamp kids hit puberty, right?  I'd imagine it's not trying to feed until they're older.  But I can't recall if something was said about that.

[Arjan]

We might find out eventually, but it seems like an odd choice to me.  Justine was a young girl dating the outcast son of the White Court King.  Lord Raith was clearly willing to use Outsiders, as he trained Madge to summon Behind.  I don't see the value in infecting Justine at that time.

As the book said, her getting infected when Justine got close to the leader of the White Court makes more sense to me.
That analogy would have to go with... Amanda Beckitt.
Beside would be a lot like Agent Smith, but I doubt Beside is as powerful as Smith.  Maybe Smith from the first movie, where he's limited to one host.  The mass host thing just seems wrong to me.

But yeah, a Starborn has built in protection against the Outsiders, which would be like having protection from his ports being manipulated.  His ability to control them or have power over them, which I think was mentioned by Lash, would be that his outbound ports are open to send power at them, and likewise they can't close their own inbound ports against him.
Yeah, I think Mab would have preferred Beside be trapped, but not in Lea. She's too important.

It does make me wonder if Mab's threat to get vengeance on everyone involved would include Harry, if his attack on the Winter Spring played a role in Beside escaping and infecting Maeve.

Not at all because infecting Maeve and Aurora must have been the first thing Nemesis did after infecting Lea in Grave Peril. No reason to wait and risk the whole operation.

After that Nemesis tried to keep its presence in winter hidden but Lea became aware and started to resist. That happened somewhere before dead beat.