Nemesis Scope Survey [BG Spoilers]

[Griffyn612]

I'll update this poll as new possibilities are presented. 

• No 'other here', just reply with options and I'll add.
• For count-based limitations, I'm going with basic (1), thematic (3), or known limitations to outsiders (13, like the cornerhounds). If a case can be made for another number, I'll add it.
• Possession options are for full possession, like we've seen with Cat Sith and Justine.
• Influence options are for whispered influence, like what may have happened with Sells, Denton, and others, possibly without violating mortal free will and not controlling them directly.
• Spying options are for theoretical sensory input from corrupted targets, where there's no influence exerted but intel is gathered from unknowing victims.

[Avernite]

I suspect the gradations are insufficient.

I'm pretty sure Sith was fully taken over with no consent at all.
We know Denton et al did consent in some way, accepting a power-up without understanding the consequences.

What I suspect:
Mortals are safe from unwilling possession. All the mortals (note: specifics not known, especially for Justine) consented in at least some way, making them vulnerable.
Non-Mortals are unsafe from possession. Simple powerplay, if Nemesis is more powerful it can crush a will and seize a body. But still, Nemesis prefers whispers and chains because they make a more useful tool - but those chains and whispers can be fought without power (see: Sith, Lea) so a direct fight of mind against mind may be needed. In Siths case, Nemesis scored a crushing victory, in Lea's case an ongoing battle it was winning until Lea drafted in Mab's aid.

[Arjan]

I suspect the gradations are insufficient.

I'm pretty sure Sith was fully taken over with no consent at all.
We know Denton et al did consent in some way, accepting a power-up without understanding the consequences.

What I suspect:
Mortals are safe from unwilling possession. All the mortals (note: specifics not known, especially for Justine) consented in at least some way, making them vulnerable.

I see no reason for that. Free will is nice but it was never a defense against something just overpowering you.

Non-Mortals are unsafe from possession. Simple powerplay, if Nemesis is more powerful it can crush a will and seize a body. But still, Nemesis prefers whispers and chains because they make a more useful tool - but those chains and whispers can be fought without power (see: Sith, Lea) so a direct fight of mind against mind may be needed. In Siths case, Nemesis scored a crushing victory, in Lea's case an ongoing battle it was winning until Lea drafted in Mab's aid.

[The_Sibelis]

I already picked... But I have this theory Nemesis can whisper to almost anyone. Like .. she's the devil in our shadow. The dark reflection of everyone. But most mortals can simply shrug it off. Immortals, lacking free will overall cannot. That's why so many of them have their shadow inside reality to create a balance in which Nemesis can not act.

[Avernite]

I see no reason for that. Free will is nice but it was never a defense against something just overpowering you.

Well, see, I believe free will is useless if it can just be overpowered, and the Fallen and Knights make a big deal about it.
If Nemesis can just come in and rip your free will away, did you ever have free will to begin with? Was it just a loan or something?

I suppose there's the additional option that Nemesis CAN rip your will away by the power of another free-willed mortal, since that is at least consistent with the rest of my understanding of it. So if say Cowl was calling Nemesis onto Justine it's now her will against Cowl's will, rather than otherworldy-horror against free will.

[Arjan]

Well, see, I believe free will is useless if it can just be overpowered, and the Fallen and Knights make a big deal about it.
If Nemesis can just come in and rip your free will away, did you ever have free will to begin with? Was it just a loan or something?

I suppose there's the additional option that Nemesis CAN rip your will away by the power of another free-willed mortal, since that is at least consistent with the rest of my understanding of it. So if say Cowl was calling Nemesis onto Justine it's now her will against Cowl's will, rather than otherworldy-horror against free will.

It is not useless but it is not a panacea either.

Free will is about the choices you make but other people make choices too and some of those choices were made long ago.

And there is nature. You can not choose not to drown when you fall into the water, you can only choose to try saving yourself swimming but if you chose in the past not to learn how to swim you will still drown.

Sometimes you do not have that many options. That does not make free will useless, it just makes you responsible for the choices you can make.

A vampire can overpower and kill you. And maybe nemesis can overpower and possess you, I see no evidence in the text that permission is necessary.

Sure with weaker spirits it might be necessary just like in ghost story Harry had to be invited in a strong threshold but he could break into a weak one.

But nemesis is not weak. Things happen against your will free or not. That is also life.

The assumption that an infected human must have invited the illness is also typica blaming the victim behavior. It is attractive because then you can feel safe yourself but it is often bullshit.

[Avernite]

It is not useless but it is not a panacea either.

Free will is about the choices you make but other people make choices too and some of those choices were made long ago.

And there is nature. You can not choose not to drown when you fall into the water, you can only choose to try saving yourself swimming but if you chose in the past not to learn how to swim you will still drown.

Sometimes you do not have that many options. That does not make free will useless, it just makes you responsible for the choices you can make.

A vampire can overpower and kill you. And maybe nemesis can overpower and possess you, I see no evidence in the text that permission is necessary.

Sure with weaker spirits it might be necessary just like in ghost story Harry had to be invited in a strong threshold but he could break into a weak one.

But nemesis is not weak. Things happen against your will free or not. That is also life.

The assumption that an infected human must have invited the illness is also typica blaming the victim behavior. It is attractive because then you can feel safe yourself but it is often bullshit.

It may be typical blaming-the-victim, but it's literally how Lasciel pasted a shadow on Harry. By HIS will, supported by many others for sure, but his will was the deciding factor to allow it.

Likewise, all the times a big nasty has used Will to assail Harry, it's when he has deliberately sought them out. It's never just happening.

And we have strong indications Sells, Denton, and so on accepted bad help before being twisted. We know Warlocks must use black magic to be twisted. And half-Reds must kill to stop being human.

In other words: all the evidence we have it's clear that, while major forces constrain and try to drive them towards a certain path, the only real way for will to be annihilated is for the one with will to accept it. And even then, in many cases there is still a path back (hence the Knights of the Cross).
If Mab cannot change who you are, by basically word of god (as well as Eb), can anything? Or can they only kill you?

The only contrarian datapoint we have is Justine; it's possible she's different because direct Nemesis is different, it seems far more likely we just don't know where she picked up bad influences.

[Arjan]

It may be typical blaming-the-victim, but it's literally how Lasciel pasted a shadow on Harry. By HIS will, supported by many others for sure, but his will was the deciding factor to allow it.

Those are the rules the angels, fallen or not, operate under but mark that the fallen can break those rules and Uriel’s response has limits. A lot of damage by the seven words the fallen whispered in Harry’s ears was not repaired.

The white court can just walk in and overwhelm your emotions whatever you want. The black court can kill and turn you. Why would Nemesis not be able to just overpower you?

Likewise, all the times a big nasty has used Will to assail Harry, it's when he has deliberately sought them out. It's never just happening.

And Vadderung easily overpowered Harry with his will just for demonstration purposes. But there is a distinction between will power as a force you can use in a form of combat and free will to make choices. They can not take your free will but they can overpower your will.

And we have strong indications Sells, Denton, and so on accepted bad help before being twisted. We know Warlocks must use black magic to be twisted. And half-Reds must kill to stop being human.

But they can not stop being half vampire unless Harry redirects a spell.

In other words: all the evidence we have it's clear that, while major forces constrain and try to drive them towards a certain path, the only real way for will to be annihilated is for the one with will to accept it. And even then, in many cases there is still a path back (hence the Knights of the Cross).
If Mab cannot change who you are, by basically word of god (as well as Eb), can anything? Or can they only kill you?

But is that even the point? The fallen try to corrupt your soul but corrupting your soul is different from just overpowering you and possessing your body.

Once the possession is gone your soul is unchanged. Maybe Justine was possessed because nemesis could not corrupt her just like nemesis possessed Cath Sith when it could not keep its presence hidden.

The only contrarian datapoint we have is Justine; it's possible she's different because direct Nemesis is different, it seems far more likely we just don't know where she picked up bad influences.

Also Peabody could just influence Luccio’s mind so she started to date Harry but Luccio was not really changed by it and when peabodies meddling stopped Luccio reasserted herself. Nemesis infection could work similarly.

Free will is about the choices you make not about the circumstances you find yourself in.

[Mira]

Also Peabody could just influence Luccio’s mind so she started to date Harry but Luccio was not really changed by it and when peabodies meddling stopped Luccio reasserted herself. Nemesis infection could work similarly.

It wasn't that simple, Rashid said that Luccio was going to need a lot of psychological treatment to get back to normal.  Harry also realized that what they had wasn't real when Rashid told him about it.  Later when they met she seemed very sorry, on one hand she knew she enjoyed what they had, but on the other she now realized she was being pushed into it by the ink.  Anyway, as Rashid said, the damage done to her mind by the ink was real and would take a while to repair.  So what I am saying they may sound the same but not be.  Getting rid of Nemesis may be easier for Cat Sith and Maeve, the only cure apparently was death.  Mab managed to cure Lea, but it took many weeks in ice.

[Arjan]

It wasn't that simple, Rashid said that Luccio was going to need a lot of psychological treatment to get back to normal.  Harry also realized that what they had wasn't real when Rashid told him about it.  Later when they met she seemed very sorry, on one hand she knew she enjoyed what they had, but on the other she now realized she was being pushed into it by the ink.  Anyway, as Rashid said, the damage done to her mind by the ink was real and would take a while to repair.  So what I am saying they may sound the same but not be.  Getting rid of Nemesis may be easier for Cat Sith and Maeve, the only cure apparently was death.  Mab managed to cure Lea, but it took many weeks in ice.

No it was not that simple and she has to work and endure for it but it is going to get better. ButI think her soul is intact and that will help the rest.

But that is to be expected. If Harry succeeds in driving out nemesis from Justine there will be damage but I think there is a good change Justine can be restored in the end. But no certainty.

But I left this point out not because it is unimportant but because it only obscures the point I wanted to make.

The point is about free will. Free will is about the choices you can make, not some protection against choices, free or not, others make.

The reason you have to invite the fallen in is not because free will is a protection against all invasions, it is because angelic and infernal beings are specifically interested in free will.

[Mira]

But that is to be expected. If Harry succeeds in driving out nemesis from Justine there will be damage but I think there is a good change Justine can be restored in the end. But no certainty.

If he recovers and is set free, I think Thomas would have a lot to do with her recovery, if it happens.

The reason you have to invite the fallen in is not because free will is a protection against all invasions, it is because angelic and infernal beings are specifically interested in free will.

Yeah, they violate free will all of the time, but at the same time they have to be accepted by the host  of his or her own free will.  And yeah, like Lasciel demonstrated they will go to great lengths to tempt and trick to make it happen.  It kind of "in your face" mocking of free will.

The point is about free will. Free will is about the choices you can make, not some protection against choices, free or not, others make.

Yup, all choices have consequences, good and bad, the consequences also ripple out from us, we cannot be protected from it.  Free will is also about responsibility, you freely make a choice, you can be held responsible for that choice. 

[Bad Alias]

I think Nemesis can infect a limited number, but I don't have an opinion on that number other than Jim has laid the groundwork for 13 to make a lot of sense and that's a nice catch.

If I was forced to put money on the possess/influence/spy angle, I'd wager that it's all one number. Nemesis has to make a decision as to whether it's best to use the host through possession, influence, or laying dormant until the right moment. I think anyone basically anyone can be infected. There are some exceptions like Archangels and maybe the Mothers. Anyone less absolute is vulnerable. Looked at that way, mortals might be the most vulnerable.

I agree with Arjan on the free will debate. Free will is about choices, not immunity from anything, especially the choices of others. It looks like most Outsiders are brought in by choice. It's unfortunate that someone else's bad choices can harm others, but them's the brakes.

[Snark Knight]

What I suspect:
Mortals are safe from unwilling possession. All the mortals (note: specifics not known, especially for Justine) consented in at least some way, making them vulnerable.

I'm not actually sure Justine isn't a scion and Harry just never knew. There was a WOJ that there was something significant about her background that she'd shared with Thomas but they kept private from Harry.

What I'm really curious about is how she was infected. If it wasn't lying about having got to her when she started getting close to Lara, which was at least by White Night, that means either another infected or an object vector in Raith. Madeline and / or Madrigal, or someone else?

[The_Sibelis]

I'm not actually sure Justine isn't a scion and Harry just never knew. There was a WOJ that there was something significant about her background that she'd shared with Thomas but they kept private from Harry.

I always pegged her for a changling actually. The overpowering emotions and what not.
I remember she was just as easy to possess as Lydia was, and Kravos mentioned how they were so similar. Something there I can't put my finger on atm.
*Humans DO invite being weak of will through choice opening themselves to possession.. Harry talks about it in GP, doing drugs(black magic too) and other things weakens your natural resistance to possession as it dulls your willpower.